Subject: KARNEI ARRB-HSCA COMPARISON Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:08:33 -0400 From: KFITZ Organization: Prodigy Internet Newsgroups: startext.jfk COMPARISON OF DR. ROBERT KARNEI'S HSCA TESTIMONY AND ARRB SUMMARY REPORT OF HIS DEPOSITION By Kathlee Fitzgerald (THANKS GO TO Kathy Cunningham for the Karnei ARRB deposition summary report) 8/23/77= Karnei HSCA testimony 5/21/98= Karnei ARRB deposition HSCA: Dr. Karnei was called to the Admiral's office at approximately 5:30 P.M. on November 22, 1963 and told to report to the Admiral's office. There Admiral Galloway told him that Dr. Humes and Dr. Boswell would be performing the autopsy on the President. ARRB: He said he was notified about 5:30 P.M. by CAPT [sic] Stover that Drs. Humes and Boswell would be performing the autopsy. HSCA: Dr. Karnei said he would normally have been the one to do the autopsy. Instead, his role became that of liaison for various people involved with the autopsy. ARRB: He was "on duty" the day of the assassination, which meant that any autopsy which was necessitated after hours would have been his to perform, under normal conditions. However, in this case, Dr. Karnei said that a decision was made by the higher-ups (perhaps CAPT [sic] Stover, or perhaps even Admiral Kenney, he did not know) to use staff pathologists for President Kennedy's autopsy, not residents in training. He said he was assigned (and performed) miscellaneous duties, such as arranging security with the Marine guards; providing office space for, and coordinating security arrangements with, the Commanding General of the MDW and his aides; escorting VIP visitors to the tower suite where Mrs. Kennedy was staying during the autopsy; obtaining food for the military security guards and FBI/S.S. agents… ARRB: He said he was assigned (and performed) miscellaneous duties, such as arranging security with the Marine guards… and coordinating security arrangements with, the Commanding General of the MDW and his aides …. HSCA:…the C.O. of the Washington, D.C. Military District (for which Dr. Karnei arranged a command post in the O.B. GYN Clinic)… ARRB:... obtaining food for the military security guards and FBI/S.S. agents… HSCA:… Later, Dr. Karnei opened the kitchen for the Secret Service men and the Honor Guard… ARRB:… and most important, trying to control who was and was not admitted into the morgue during the autopsy. Dr. Karnei checked the I.D.s of several people during the evening as people entered, or tried to enter, the morgue. HSCA:… He stationed Marine guards at the door near the elevator, at the back door, in the passageway, and at the door by the staircase. He was told be Admiral Kinney, the Surgeon General of the Navy, to station the guards and keep everyone out. Dr. Karnei recalls newsmen coming from the old to the new morgue and his efforts to stop them. The newsmen said they got permission from the C.O. to be in the area and Dr. Karnei told them that the Surgeon General said they couldn't come any closer. Dr. Karnei recalls telling the Marine guards to "...draw your 45s [sic] if you have to." Dr. Karnei indicated that in addition to the Marine guards the Naval Hospital normally has its own civilian force of security personnel ARRB: He also left the morgue several times to perform other duties, and subsequently did not have total control over morgue access. HSCA: …Dr. Karnei said he observed some of the autopsy… ARRB: Dr. Karnei said he did not witness the arrival of the President's body at the loading dock, or its entrance into the morgue, and therefore could not answer any questions regarding the type or color of the ambulance, nor could he through first- hand observation tell us when the body arrived. However, he did remember seeing a silver-colored casket early in the evening, in the cold room (the anteroom containing the chill boxes) next to the morgue. He said he even sat next to it part of the evening. (Later in the ARRB interview, he remembered that it had one handle broken off.) He also remembered seeing a dark brown, or maroon-colored casket, possibly made of wood, later in the evening; he said that he definitely saw this second casket "after 8:00." HSCA: none ARRB: Dr. Karnei said that the first time he saw the President's body on 11/22/63, it was already on the autopsy table, and that it was being undressed. He said he had a vague recollection of pants being removed from the President's body, and of photographs being taken while the body was undressed. The President's hair was covered in dried, matted blood at this viewing. HSCA: Dr. Karnei recalls the body having been placed on the table which he said was normally followed by the residents checking for scars, etc. before [sic] the doctors start. ARRB: President's head wound(s): Dr. Karnei emphasized that he did not participate in the autopsy proper, nor did he look inside the cranium. However, he did remember seeing one wound in the right side of the head approximately above the right ear, and another wound in the posterior skull, up high in the back of the head, either in the center, or just left of center (which he associated in his mind with a right-front to left rear trajectory, or vice-versa). He also said that the upper posterior skull sagged a bit; i.e., was a bit concave in shape. HSCA: ? ARRB: Brain: Dr. Karnei said he did not see the Brain [sic] removed, but he did see Humes, Boswell and Finck very carefully inspecting it outside of the body after it had been removed. He had vague memories of damage to the "right hemisphere," but could not remember whether the cerebellum was damaged or not. HSCA: Dr. Karnei believes the brain transfer was handled by Dr. Humes and Dr. Boswell. He said he "...has a feeling Dr. Humes locked it in his office." …He said he personally was not present for the sectioning of the brain, but said it normally occurs about two weeks after the autopsy. He added that he has no information regarding a subsequent brain examination. Dr. Karnei said that normally a neuro-Pathologist is present for the examination of abnormal brains. He said this brain would be "...considered such because of the extensive damage." He said the brain in such a case would "...normally be taken over..." to AFIP. He repeated that the disposition of such materials is governed by the tri-service agreement. He said the agreement has been changed a number of times in the ensuing years, and said he could get us a copy of the present one. ARRB: Thorax wound: Dr. Karnei says that when he re-entered the morgue at about 8:00 P.M., he saw Dr. Pierre Finck probing the wound in the upper right shoulder repeatedly with a succession of flexible metal probes, in unsuccessful attempts to find the path of a bullet. He said that the wound in the shoulder was the only wound he personally saw probed that night. At the time Dr. Finck was probing the back wound, Dr. Karnei said that no incisions had yet been made in the President's body. HSCA: Dr. Karnei does not recall how late into the autopsy Dr. Finck arrived, but recalls the other doctors wanted someone with ballistics experience. He believes he came in around 8:00 o'clock "...a while after they were into the autopsy." … Dr. Karnei said he was present when probing of the wound was attempted. ("...when they were putting the probes through the body". [sic]) Dr. Karnei said he was "...not exactly sure..." how successful they were with the probing. He recalls them putting the probe in and taking pictures (the body was on the side at the time). He said they felt the hole in the back was a wound of entrance and they were "...trying to figure out where the bullet came out." …He doesn't remember whether Dr. Finck did any cutting or just examined the body. He said he does "...remember him working with a probe and arranging for photographs." ARRB:Photography: Dr. Karnei said that he remembered repeated instances, during the numerous attempts to probe the back wound, when photographs were taken of a probe in the President's body (at approximately 9:00 P.M.), and seemed more certain of this recollection than of any other during his ARRB interview. HSCA:… He recalls them putting the probe in and taking pictures (the body was on the side at the time). …He said he does "...remember him [Ficke] working with a probe and arranging for photographs." He remembers that John Stringer was photographing the autopsy, and that Stringer used both an old-fashioned type camera that required the use of film-holder for sheets of film, and also a 35 mm camera. (He could not remember whether Stringer used a tripod the night of the Kennedy autopsy.) He said that there was a second person taking photographs also, whom he initially described to ARRB staff as an FBI or Secret Service agent, and that this person used a different (second) 35mm [sic] camera (separate from Stringer's). When challenged to remember why he was of the opinion that the second photographer was an FBI or S.S. agent, Dr. Karnei said it may have only been an impression of his, because he thought that all civilians in the room were Federal Agents. HSCA: Dr. Karnei saw the chest cavity opened and watched the removal of the organs. When asked if any photographs were taken at that time, Dr. Karnei said "...they took a lot of photographs at various times." He recalled the photographer handing the film holders to "...a guy in a suit." When asked how autopsy photographs were normally identified, he said that it was standard procedure for the autopsy number to be placed on some measuring device (showing scale), and then to be photographed somewhere in the field of view in each autopsy photograph. However, he also said that he could not remember whether this procedure was used the night of the autopsy, or not. When asked whether John Stringer had used a ladder at the autopsy to take pictures, Dr. Karnei was of the impression that Stringer (who was short, only about 5'2" in height) had "stood on something" to take some photographs being taken during the embalming, but explained that he was present only during the very late stages of the embalming and burial preparation procedures. ARRB: X-rays: Dr. Karnei could remember X-rays being taken in the morgue after developing, but could not remember any specifics of their interpretation, or what they looked like. He did remember that federal agents escorted the X-rays film, and the technician who had taken it, upstairs, and back down again each time it was developed and returned to the morgue. ARRB: "Control of the Autopsy:" Dr. Karnei made clear that in his opinion, Drs. Humes and Boswell were in charge of the medical procedures during the autopsy, but he was under the general impression that the scope of the autopsy they were allowed to perform had been limited by Robert Kennedy, and that Robert Kennedy (he felt) had wanted to limit dissection of the body as much as possible. He recalled that Dr. Humes had twice asked permission for the scope of the autopsy to be expanded, to first allow access to the chest, and then to allow access to the abdomen. In each case, it was Dr. Karnei's impression that Dr. Burkley had personally gone upstairs to the tower suite on the 17th floor to obtain permission to expand the scope of the autopsy. In a different context, Dr. Karnei talked about photography in general by saying that it was controlled by "the people controlling the autopsy." When asked what this meant, he replied that the FBI and Secret Service (and then clarified that he meant Federal Agents in civilian clothes) were "controlling everything to do with the pictures: including confiscation of all photographic and X-ray film, including unexposed X-ray films, and exposed (and unopened) rolls of photographic film. He said that this control was so tight that he was surprised that the prosectors were allowed to take their notes with them when they left the room after the autopsy. HSCA: Dr. Karnei doesn't "...know if any limitations were placed on how the autopsy was to be done." He said he didn't know who was running things. …Dr. Karnei saw the chest cavity opened and watched the removal of the organs. When asked if any photographs were taken at that time, Dr. Karnei said "...they took a lot of photographs at various imes." He recalled the photographer handing the film holders to "...a guy in a suit." Dr. Karnei recalls that there were "at least" a half a dozen agents present. ARRB: Tissue Slides: Dr. Karnei exhibited more uncertainty in this area than in others, but was fairly certain that the tissue slides were not prepared (not "cut") until Sunday; he says that a Federal Agent sat by the tissue processor all night the night of the autopsy, and possibly even Saturday night, and thought this peculiar since in his opinion the slides were not cut until probably Sunday. HSCA: …had no recollection of any metal fragments or any sectioning being done. He said such sectioning normally occurs the following day. He did recall a Chief Mason being around and "...thinks Benson actually cut the slides...that day or the day after." He recalls a "...Secret Service man assigned to watch the tissue processor...all night." He said they were "...always present during the processing." They apparently wanted to prevent the taking of artifacts. …Regarding the tissue slides, Dr. Karnei "...doesn't know if AFIP got any of the material." He said there is a tri-service agreement regarding the transfer of such materials to AFIP. He said these provisions could be stopped by the Surgeon General or the family. He added, however, that he has no information where the material are or who might know where they are. ARRB: Notes and Diagrams: Dr. Karnei said that he remember Dr. Boswell making diagrams, but did not specifically recall anyone writing down notes. When asked, he had no knowledge of Dr. Finck's notes being missing, or of Dr. Finck looking for his notes. HSCA:… Dr. Karnei does not recall any note-taking around the table (he was standing against the wall near the table at the time)… Dr. Karnei said the morgue is equipped with a supply of "loose" blank face sheets for use during the autopsy…Dr. Karnei said he thought "...Dr. Boswell was actually taking notes. ...thinks they were both working on the diagrams."… Dr. Karnei said he has no information about the existence of any diary or any notes taken during the autopsy. ARRB: Embalming: Dr. Karnei said that he only witnessed the embalming near the end of the procedure when he entered the morgue (after having secured the third floor of Bethesda so that Mrs. Kennedy could depart safely) and saw President Kennedy's body on "the other" (i.e., the one not used for dissection) morgue examination table (there were two tables in the morgue) in a fully-clothed condition. At this time, he said that the embalmers were putting some wax into a tear or lacaration on the side of the face near the eye, and that when they were finished, you could not even tell that there had been any damage in that area. He said that following this procedure no damage was visible anywhere on the President's body, and that in his opinion an open-casket funeral was completely feasible; he summarized by saying the President "looked good." Dr. Karnei said he did not witness the President's body loaded into a casket after embalming - his duties must have called him elsewhere and precluded him from witnessing this event. HSCA: Dr. Karnei recalls Jackie going to the morgue in time to leave with the body. He recalls a lieutenant who was in blue uniform being present at the time. ARRB: Autopsy Conclusions: Dr. Karnei said that "about midnight" the prosectors still had not found a bullet track through the body, nor had they found an exit wound for the entry in the shoulder, and had only a bruise atop the right lung as further evidence of damage -- he did not observe the bruise, but seemed to remember them discussing it. He said that Humes had concluded that two shots had hit the President from the rear. He told the ARRB staff that he was aware of hearsay that Dr. Humes had called Dallas to talk to a surgeon later in the evening before the body left the morgue, and had then learned that the tracheotomy had been made through a bullet wound in the front of the neck, thus causing Humes to conclude that the tracheomoty had obscured an exit wound. However, he could not remember who told him this, or when. HSCA: …Dr. Karnei said the wound of the throat "...looked like a tracheotomy elipse [sic]" but said there was no discussion of that fact. He said he thought it was assumed. He said he recalled no talk about there being a wound of entrance in the front of the neck. He gathered from his conversation with Dr. Boswell that the doctors didn't come to a "...full conclusion..." that night. … He remembers a phone being present on the wall about 3 1/2 - 4 feet away from the table but doesn't remember anyone using it. He also said there was a phone in the ante room. …Dr. Karnei recalls very little conversation during the autopsy, but does "...remember them saying they couldn't find the bullet." He said Dr. Burkley may have been present but he doesn't recall. He said he "...probably would have utilized someone from AFIP." Dr. Karnei indicated he had very little conversation with the doctors after the autopsy but did "...talk with Dr. Boswell that night." They agreed that things were "...sort of dragging on..." ARRB: Order of Silence: Dr. Karnei remembered himself, Drs. Humes, and Boswell being told to sign the "gag order in CAPT [sic] Stover's office on approximately Monday after the assassination. He remember signing one, and then told ARRB that he thought is contained a written time period of about 20 years which defined the length of the period of silence that was being enforced upon threat of court martial. ARRB staff then showed him a photocopy of an onionskin carbon copy in which the letter's text, and second endorsement were both signed by CAPT [sic] Stover, but which contained no signature by Dr. Karnei, only a notation (apparently written by CAPT [sic] Stover) which says "original is signed--JHS." Dr. Karnei seemed surprised that he could not find any statement in the text of this letter which defined the order of silence in terms of number of years. HSCA: Dr. Karnei recalls that two days after the autopsy he signed a statement in which he pledged he would remain silent about what he saw and heard for ten years. He said that just prior to the expiration of the ten-year period, the time limit was extended fifteen more years. He got the "impression" that the instructions came from the Surgeon General. He believes that the Kennedy family said that the pledge of silence had to be extended. ARRB: Written Chronology of Events of November 22-December 8, 1963: Dr. Karnei provided a typewritten chronology and timeline of events which he constructed himself, long after the autopsy, based upon a combination of his memory, the Warren Report, and David Lifton's book Best Evidence. He stated he prepared this chronology so that he could brief his residents whenever they asked him questions about the autopsy. He told ARRB staff that he did not read the Warren Report or Lifton's book in its entirety, but only selectively perused them for the times of certain events, in order to supplement his memory of the things he personally observed. A copy of the this chronology is attached to the file copy of this meeting report.