ARRB DEPOSITION OF SAUNDRA SPENCER, 6/5/97 Saundra Spencer worked at the Naval Photographic Center, where the autopsy photographs were developed. She claims to have developed and printed a different set of autopsy photographs than those in the Archives. ----- Page 1 BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION RECORDS REVIEW BOARD In Re: PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY College Park, Maryland Thursday, June 5, 1997 The deposition of SAUNDRA KAY SPENCER, called for examination by counsel for the Board in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, at Archives II, 6381 Adelphi Road, College Park, Maryland, convened at 10:00 a.m., before Robert H. Haines, a notary public in and for the State of Maryland, where were present on behalf of the parties: Page 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Assassination Records Review Board: T. JEREMY GUNN, ESQ. General Counsel Assassination Records Review Board 600 E Street, N.W., Second Floor Washington, D.C. 20530 (202) 724-0088 ALSO PRESENT: DAVID G. MARWELL Executive Director DOUGLAS P. HORNE Chief Analyst for Military Recrods DAVE MONTAGUE Senior Investigator CONTENTS WITNESS EXAMINATION Saundra Kay Spencer 3 Page 3 [1] PROCEEDINGS [2] MR. GUNN: Would you swear the witness, [3] please. [4] Whereupon, [5] SAUNDRA KAY SPENCER [6] was called as a witness, and, having been first [7] duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: [8] EXAMINATION [9] BY MR.GUNN: [10] Q: Would you state your full name for the [11] record, please. [12] A: Saundra Kay Spencer. [13] Q: Ms. Spencer, were you employed in November [14] of 1963? [15] A: Yes, I was. [16] Q: What position did you have in November of [17] 1963? [18] A: I was 1st Class with United States Navy. [19] Q: Where did you work at that time? [20] A: I worked at the Photographic Center in a [21] special unit for the Naval Aide to the President [22] for Photography. Page 4 [1] Q: When you say the "Photographic Center," [2] what do you mean? [3] A: That is a Class A lab, which was the [4] central photo lab for the Navy. It's located at [5] Anacostia. [6] Q: Has this been also known as the Naval [7] Photographic Center? [8] A: Yes. [9] Q: I would like to come back to your position [10] in 1963, but if we could go a little bit earlier [11] and then we will come back to it later. [12] Did you have any formal training in [13] photography? [14] A: Yes, I entered the basic photography [15] school out of recruit training in `57. I also had [16] special color school, Rochester Institute of [17] Technology and Quality Control, Class B school, [18] which is the advanced photography school, [19] cinematography school, a school in recon camera [20] systems repair and camera repair. [21] Q: Did you take all of those courses during [22] the time that you were in the Navy? Page 5 [1] A: Yes. [2] Q: Were all of those courses taken prior to [3] 1963? [4] A: No. The A and the B school, and the color [5] school was taken prior. [6] Q: While you were in the Navy, did you do [7] work other than in the area of photography? [8] A: No, it was all photographic related - oh, [9] I take that back. I did go for a tour at recruit [10] training for women at Bainbridge, Maryland, [11] was chief drill instructor and swimming instructor. [12] Q: Would it be fair to say that for [13] approximately six year between 1957 and 1963, that [14] your pnncipal area of work was in photography? [15] A: Yes. [16] Q: Had you had any experience in photography [17] prior to the time that you joined the Navy? [18] A: Yes, since the time I was about 11 years [19] old, dad insisted we have family hobbies, and [20] photography was one of them, so I learned [21] photography. Then, in my senior year of high [22] school, the photographer that was scheduled to do Page 6 [1] our annuals passed away, and so I took over the [2] photographic shooting and everything for our school [3] annual. [4] Q: Prior to 1963, had you had any experience [5] with photography of autopsies or of cadavers? [6] A: Yes. While I was stationed at a Class D [7] lab at Pensacola, Florida, at the Naval Air [8] Station, we were responsible for photographing the [9] autopsy of student pilots for the Navy that didn't [10] quite make it, and we provided 2 1/4" by 2 1/4" [11] slides for BuMED (Naval Bureau of Medicine and [12] Surgery). [13] Q: Did you take the photographs yourself? [14] A: Yes. [15] Q: Did you also develop the photographs? [16] A: Yes. [17] Q: Approximately, how many persons did you [18] take photographs of who were deceased? [19] A: Probably aroun 10, 12 during the two [20] years I was on the shooting crew. [21] Q: I would like to go now to the Naval [22] Photographic Center in 1963. Could you describe in Page 7 [1] just a very general way the structure of the NPC? [2] A: Okay. NPC was a three-story building that [3] was originally built by Eastman Kodak during World [4] War II, on the top floor was the library and the [5] color lab primarily. [6] The second floor was black and white [7] division and some of the office spaces for support. [8] The third or the bottom floor dealt primarily with [9] motion picture production and TV production. They [10] have a sound stage. [11] Also on the third floor was the art and [12] animation divisions. [13] Q: Was there a White House lab or a White [14] House section in the NPC building? [15] A: Yes. It was located within the color [16] division. It was a single room, probably I would [17] say about 15 feet by 15 foot with an adjoining 8 by [18] 10 room, and that was further broken down into two [19] color print rooms, a black and white print room [20] with sink, two dryers, and the adjourning room was [21] where we had the Calumet color processor. It was a [22] small unit and it all had the C-22 process in it Page 8 [1] plus the color print process. [2] Q: Was that the area that you worked in? [3] A: Yes. [4] Q: Do you know why the White House lab was [5] located within the color lab? [6] A: Most of the work primarily was color at [7] that time, so it was just close proximity, we could [8] draw our chemistry and stuff from the main lines of [9] the color lab. [10] The black and white we did was a lot of [11] fine development, because they didn't like to use [12] flash at the White House, so a lot of it was [13] available-light photography. We did the ultra-fine [14] development on it, so that was not regularly [15] done downstairs in the black and white division, [16] and we had a limited amount of black and white that [17] we actually produced. [18] Q: Do you know of any other lab that [19] typically handled White House photography in 1963? [20] A: They had two or three photographers that [21] were with the motion picture crews, but they worked [22] directly for one person. Chief Knudsen would Page 9 [1] usually direct them and what they did was aside [2] from anything that we did. They did not have a [3] special unit. [4] Q: Do you know of any other lab that [5] developed still photography in addition to the lab [6] where you worked? [7] A: To my knowledge, no. [8] Q: What was your position in the White House [9] lab in November of `63? [10] A: I was Petty Officer in Charge. [11] Q: Did you have any supervisor who was also [12] within the White House lab? [13] A: Chief Knudsen was our liaison and [14] supervisor from the White House, but we fell also [15] under the Office in Charge of the color lab, but [16] they pretty much left us alone, did our own thing. [17] They gave us a cipher lock on our room and said do [18] try to stay awake. [19] Q: When you say "they" left you alone, you [20] are referring to the color lab itself? [21] A: The color lab and the Officer in Charge. [22] They would ask periodically if we needed any Page 10 [1] support or anything, and if we needed anything we [2] just asked them and we usually got what we needed. [3] Q: How many people worked under you in the [4] White House lab in November of `63? [5] A: It averaged four to five at various times, [6] people would come and go as they transferred in and [7] out, they were assigned to the Photographic Center, [8] and they were then detailed to us. [9] Q: During the time that you worked in the [10] White House lab, did you ever develop color [11] transparencies? [12] A: No. [13] Q: Did you have the capability of developing [14] color transparencies in the White House lab? [15] A: No. [16] Q: Did the color division, separate from the [17] White House lab, have any capability of developing [18] color transparencies? [19] A: Yes, they did. [20] Q: Did you ever work yourself developing [21] color transparencies in the color lab at NPC? [22] A: Yes. Page 11 [1] Q: When and what kinds of occasions did you [2] do that? [3] A: When I returned, after I had gone to [4] camera repair school, after I had left the [5] Photographic Center the first time, I went to [6] camera repair school, and then I returned, and at [7] that time, they had placed a lot of mechanized [8] equipment in, so I started working over there and [9] stuff. You don't have any hands-on, but you load [10] the reels and put them in the baskets, and it [11] travels through until it bumps into the doors. [12] Q: Was there a capacity to develop positive [13] color transparencies by November of 1963? [14] A: Yes. [15] Q: Do you know what kinds of film were [16] capable of being developed, color transparencies in [17] November of `63? [18] A: It was the Ektachrome. Anything like [19] Kodachrome was sent out to Kodak directly. [20] Q: So Kodachrome would be sent to Kodak, but [21] Ektachrome could be developed? [22] A: Ektachrome could be in-house, and we were Page 12 [1] working with E-3, E-4s right around that time. [2] Q: You mentioned earlier a person by the name [3] of Knudsen. How often did you see Mr. Knudsen? [4] A: Not that often. When he needed a back-up [5] photographer, we would go over. Usually, most of [6] his film come by courier to us or we would go out [7] to Andrews to pick up from the courier planes, and [8] he would call us on the telephone, usually daily, [9] and we would again courier or take his proof prints [10] over and drop them off, and we would just get them [11] back by courier circled with what he wanted. [12] Q: Do you remember who the supervisor of the [13] color lab was in November of `63? [14] A: Oh, I can picture his face, but I can't [15] remember his name. It was a Lieutenant - [16] Q: Does the name Vince Madonia ring a bell? [17] A: Yes, that's him [18] Q: How often would you interact with Mr. [19] Madonia around 1963? [20] A: Oh, I would have seen him on a daily [21] basis. [22] Q: Now I would like to go to November 22nd of Page 13 [1] 1963, and ask you what you were doing when you [2] first heard about the assassination of President [3] Kennedy. [4] A: I was sitting and color correcting a photo [5] of John-John in President Kennedy's office, and it [6] came over the NPC radio speaker that the President [7] had been shot. [8] Q: After you heard that, what did you do? [9] A: We just continued to work until we got [10] word that they wanted to go ahead and close the NPC [11] down and move all except our personnel out of the [12] immediate areas. [13] In that time, just about all of D.C. went [14] into a period of mourning, and I think they [15] released most people at the agencies and stuff, the [16] ones directly related to the President, I think [17] were held on call until we actually found out what [18] was going on. [19] Q: When you say they moved all the personnel [20] out of NPC except "our area," do you mean the White [21] House area or the color lab area? [22] A: They secured the regular color lab crews Page 14 [1] and we stayed. [2] Q: So approximately, how many people stayed [3] when the rest of NPC closed down? [4] A: There was about three of us up there. [5] Q: Do you remember the names of any of the [6] other people who stayed? [7] A: Carol Bonito was the only one I can [8] identify. There was a 2nd Class that had come [9] aboard just recently, but I didn't remember. The [10] only thing I remember is Kirk was on his name. [11] Q: Ms. Spencer, I am going to hand you a [12] document that has been marked Exhibit No. MD 144, [13] which appears on its face to be an Enlisted [14] Distribution and Verification Report. [15] It appears to be dated between June of `63 [16] and October of `63. Could you first look at the [17] document and see whether you are familiar with that [18] type of document? [19] A: The first time I had seen a document like [20] this is when you had sent me the photocopies of it. [21] Q: I would like you to turn, if you would, to [22] the seventh page where the first name at the top of Page 15 [1] the page is Ashton Thomas Larr. Do you see that [2] page? [3] A: Yes. [4] Q: Do you see the name Carol Bonito - [5] A: Yes. [6] Q: - down approximately six names or so? [7] A: Yes. [8] Q: Is this the Carol Bonito that you were [9] referring to just a moment ago? [10] A: Yes. [11] Q: Could you look through this list - and [12] take as much time as you need - to see if you are [13] able to identify any other names of personnel who [14] were in the White House lab on the days after [15] November 22nd of `63? [16] A: Look at the 2nd Class, the gentleman I was [17] talking about was a 2nd Class. No, I don't see his [18] name on there. [19] Q: Okay. Let me show you one name and see if [20] looks familiar to you.This is on the fourth page. [21] The first name at the top of the page appears to be [22] Somers, S-o-m-e-r-s, Joseph M. You do see your Page 16 [1] name immediately under there? [2] A: Right. [3] Q: Do you see the name Stover? [4] A: Yes. Somers was in the color lab side. [5] Q: But not in the White House area? [6] A: No. [7] Q: Is that right? [8] A: Richard Stover, Smoky Stover was there. [9] Strickland was a chief. He was down in the black [10] and white division. Usually, in the color lab, we [11] had a high number of 1st and 2nd Class and a few [12] Airmen and 3rd Class, but they - Leo Marshall was [13] the Chief in Charge of the color lab. [14] Q: Ms. Spencer, did you have any work after [15] November 22nd, 1963, that was related to the death [16] of President Kennedy? [17] A: Yes. We were requested to develop 4" by [18] 5" color negatives and make prints of an autopsy [19] that was - we were told it was shot at Bethesda [20] after the President's body was brought back from [21] Dallas. [22] Q: I would like to come to that in a minute. Page 17 [1] Prior to that, did you have any other work or [2] responsibilities related to the death of President [3] Kennedy? [4] A: We were trying to put together the prayer [5] cards. Mrs. Kennedy had selected a black and white [6] photograph, and so we needed a number of them. [7] What we did was take four prints, 4" by 5" prints, [8] and do the vignetting on those, and then they were [9] copied to a master negative, and we took it [10] downstairs and put it on the automatic black and [11] white printers to print out the required numbers. [12] Then, we brought them back and we did not [13] cut them here. We brought them to the White House. [14] They took them to the printers and evidently they [15] were printed and cut there. [16] Q: Did you bring with you today some examples [17] of those prints that you made? [18] A: Yes, I brought just two on a half-sheet. [19] MR. GUNN: What I would like to do is mark [20] those as Exhibit No. 146, MD 146, and they will go [21] into the record as part of that. [22] [Exhibit No. MD 146 was marked Page 18 [1] for identification.] [2] BY MR. GUNN: [3] Q: Do you remember approximately how many of [4] these prints you made? [5] A: I think the count was supposed to be [6] around 10,000, but I am sure we went over. [7] Q: What is your best recollection as to when [8] you started working on the prints? [9] A: It was after the President's body had been [10] brought back because Mrs. Kennedy personally [11] selected the print. Chief Knudsen told us which [12] one, and then we went ahead and pulled it, and [13] started the process of producing the - [14] Q: President Kennedy's body arrived at [15] approximately 6:00 p.m. in Washington, D.C. Does [16] that help you determine approximately the time when [17] you began work on the black and white prints? [18] A: No. [19] Q: Do you remember whether it was on the [20] evening of November 22nd? [21] A: It seems to me like we had gotten word the [22] following day, which would have been a Saturday. Page 19 [1] Q: So on Friday, November 22nd, 1963, did you [2] do any work related to either the funeral of [3] President Kennedy or to autopsy photographs that [4] you mentioned? [5] A: No, we were primarily in a standby [6] position. [7] Q: Approximately, how long did it take for [8] you to work on the black and white prints? [9] A: It took most of the day. It seemed to me [10] it was late, maybe 2 o'clock in the morning, by the [11] time we got them over to the White House after we [12] got the indication of which ones we needed to [13] print. [14] Q: So this would be, then, you worked on them [15] on Saturday, November 23rd, until approximately 2 [16] o'clock in the morning on Sunday, November 24th, is [17] that - [18] A: I can't remember the day. All I remember [19] is that it was after the President's body bad been [20] taken up to the Rotunda, because as we went to the [21] White House, the lines were forming for the [22] Rotunda. Page 20 [1] Q: Just to make sure that I understand this [2] correctly, that you took prints over to the White [3] House, the black and white prints, and at that [4] time, you noticed lines that were forming to go the [5] Rotunda on Capitol Hill? [6] A: Yes. [7] Q: And at the time that you took the prints [8] to the White House, do you remember whether the [9] body was at the White House or whether it was at [10] Capitol Hill? [11] A: It had to be up at the Capitol Rotunda at [12] that time. [13] Q: Now, a few minutes ago you mentioned some [14] work related to the autopsy photographs of [15] President Kennedy. When did you first receive [16] information that you would be doing some work on [17] that issue? [18] A: We received a call from the quarterdeck, [19] and they said an agent was there, and we were [20] supposed to perform, photographic work for him. [21] They logged him in and brought him up. [22] He had in his hand 4 by 5 film holders, so Page 21 [1] I am estimating - he was a large man - so he [2] probably had four or five film holders. [3] Q: Now, when you say he called from the [4] quarterdeck, where was the quarterdeck? [5] A: The quarterdeck is on the first floor of [6] NPC. [7] Q: Do you remember approximately when the [8] telephone call happened, which day of the week? [9] A: No, I don't. [10] Q: Do you remember what you were doing at the [11] time that you heard about the telephone call from [12] the quarterdeck? [13] A: No, I don't. It seemed like it was in the [14] morning. [15] Q: Were you working on the developing of the [16] black and white prints, did it interrupt that, or [17] was it before or after? [18] A: No, it was after. [19] Q: So it was after you had finished the [20] prints. Had you done any other work between the [21] time that you worked on the black and white prints [22] and that you received a call from the quarterdeck? Page 22 [1] A: We were finishing up job orders that we [2] had, that had been requested from the White House. [3] Q: Do you remember the name of the agent who [4] came with the film? [5] A: No, I don't. The only thing I remember, I [6] think he said he was with the FBI. [7] Q: Do you remember we spoke earlier, you and [8] I spoke on the telephone in December of 1996? [9] A: Yes. [10] Q: At that time you mentioned the name of an [11] agent. Do you remember the name that you used at [12] that time? [13] A: No, I don't, because I really couldn't [14] verify that that was the agent, so I just - he was [15] an agent. [16] Q: In December of 1996, you spontaneously [17] said to us that you recalled the name was Fox, but [18] that you weren't certain. Does that ring a bell? [19] A: Yes. [20] Q: When Mr. Fox or the person came to the [21] White House lab, approximately, how many other [22] people were working in the lab at that time? Page 23 [1] A: Two others. [2] Q: Do you remember who they were? Was one [3] Ms. Bonito, for example? [4] A: Yes, and the 2nd Class. The day crew was [5] on. We had two, usually two 2nd Class that worked [6] the evening shift. [7] Q: Now, when you say that the agent had 4 by [8] 5 film holders, what do you mean by that? [9] A: It means they either used a 4 by 5 press [10] camera or a view camera, and a film holder is a [11] two-sided container that holds two sheets of film, [12] insert it in the camera, pull the dark slide, do [13] your photograph, reinsert the dark slide, turn the [14] holder over, and you are ready - and pull the dark [15] slide, and you are ready for a second shot. [16] So there is two sheets of film in each of [17] the holders. [16] Q: When you refer to a press camera or a view [19] camera, are those also known as large format [20] cameras? [21] A: Yes, large format cameras. [22] Q: Now, if I recall correctly, you said that Page 24 [1] your recollection was that he had four or five of [2] these duplex film holders, is that correct? [3] A: Correct. [4] Q: Did the agent speak to you directly or did [5] he speak with somebody else? [6] A: To me directly. [7] Q: What did he ask you to do? [8] A: He said he needed the film processed and a [9] print of each of them. [10] Q: What did you then do? [11] A: We took them and then checked our [12] chemistry, brought it up to temperature, and [13] processed the negatives. We put the negatives in [14] the drying cabinet, and when they were completed, [15] we brought them out. [16] We went into the dark room and made a test [17] print on them, which we processed and color [16] corrected, and made the final print, at which time [19] we took all scraps and anything related to that [20] job, and put it in an envelope and gave it to the [21] agent, returned his film holders to him. [22] Q: Did you keep any material at all related Page 25 [1] to the development of those photographs? [2] A: Absolutely not. The agent was very [3] specific that he wanted everything, any test scraps [4] or anything that we might use. [5] Q: What type of film did you develop? [6] A: It was a color negative C-22 process. [7] Q: Could you describe for me briefly what a [8] C-22 process is? [9] A: It is a standard color - well, it was a [10] standard color negative at the time, and it's a [11] three-layer image, reverse image of each of the [12] three basic primary colors with a reddish yellow [13] masking material that is incorporated into the [14] negative to prevent bleedover of the various layers [15] when printing. [16] Q: Did you develop those negatives in the [17] White House lab or did you go into the color lab to [18] develop them? [19] A: They were processed in the White House [20] section in the Calumet Unit in the small off-room. [21] We had the color negative processing capability [22] plus the print processing. Page 26 [1] Q: When you developed the first test print, [2] what kind of paper did you put that onto? [3] A: It's the standard color print material. [4] Q: Now, you brought with you today a [5] photograph of President Kennedy that you said it [6] was your understanding was taken approximately two [7] weeks before the assassination, is that correct? [8] A: Yes, the Black Watch performed at the [9] White House, and these were brought to us, so I [10] would estimate this print was probably made about a [11] week to 10 days prior to the printing of the [12] autopsy material, so the chemical content within [13] the paper should be fairly close to what the [14] autopsy photo chemical content was. [15] MR.GUNN: What I would like to do is to [16] mark the print that you brought with you as MD No. [17] 147. [18] [Exhibit No. MD 147 was marked [19] for identification.] [20] BY MR. GUNN: [21] Q: Now, for MD 147, if I am understanding you [22] correctly, that the paper that Exhibit 147 was Page 27 [1] developed on is the same material as you used for [2] the test prints, is that correct? [3] A: Yes, at the Photographic Center, when we [4] ordered our paper, we ordered an entire run, and [5] they cut it to the various sizes that we needed, so [6] that we could make a 4 by 5, an 8 by 10, or a 16 by [7] 20, all from the same color pack, and make them [8] totally match, so that that paper should be the [9] same batch that was used. [10] Q: When you said you made a test print, how [11] many test prints did you make of each negative? [12] A: The general rule was for us to make a test [13] print of each, but I am not sure that we tested all [14] of them, because, you know, they were all the same [15] subject matter. It was general practice, though, [16] to go ahead and prepare one test print of each. [17] Q: Do you know whether more than one test [18] print was made of any of the negatives? [19] A: No. [20] Q: That is, there were no prints - [21] A: No, there were no - just one test print [22] was made of each. Page 28 [1] Q: After the color correction, how many [2] prints were made of each negative? [3] A: One. [4] Q: So would it be fair to say that, at [5] maximum, there were two prints made of each [6] negative? [7] A: That is correct. [8] Q: And were the final prints also developed [9] on the same paper as Exhibit No. 147? [10] A: Correct. [11] Q: And so you would expect that on the [12] original test print, as well as the original color-corrected [13] print, there would be the same type of [14] markings that are on the back of Exhibit No. 147? [15] A: Yes, it should have the same watermarks [16] and markings plus the same border pattern. [17] Q: When you say the "same watermarks," what [16] do you mean? [19] A: On the back of all Kodak paper, they print [20] their Kodak label, and it changes from year to [21] year, but it just says Kodak paper. [22] Q: So on the Exhibit No. 147, it appears that Page 29 [1] there is either a delta figure, or appears a delta [2] figure, and then Kodak paper, is that what you are [3] referring to? [4] A: Yes. [5] Q: Do you know the difference between a [6] negative and an inter-negative? [7] A: Yes. [8] Q: What is the difference in just a very [9] general way? [10] A: A negative is an original piece of film. [11] An inter-neg is an intermediate negative material [12] designed to go from a transparency to a print. [13] Q: Would you have been able to tell, at the [14] time that you developed the duplex films, whether [15] the film was a negative or an inter-negative? [16] A: Yes, because the inter-negative cannot be [17] processed C-22. [16] Q: So that you are certain then that they [19] were not inter-negatives that you developed? [20] A: No, they were original. [21] Q: Approximately, how much time did it take [22] between the time that you first saw the 4 by 5 Page 30 [1] duplex holders and the time that the agent left? [2] A: It takes - it was 30 minutes for the [3] processing on the negative, approximately 45 [4] minutes to dry the negatives, and then the [5] printing, the other print process was 18 minutes, [6] and then on the drying drums probably about 3 [7] minutes, so less than two hours. [8] Q: Did the agent leave immediately after the [9] final prints had been dried? [10] A: Yes. [11] Q: So he did not stay around and talk at all [12] or say anything? [13] A: No. [14] Q: Did he talk to you at all about where he [15] had obtained the photographs? [16] A: No. When he gave us the material to [17] process, he said that they - had been shot at [18] Bethesda and they were autopsy pictures, for us to [19] process them and try to not observe too much, don't [20] peruse. [21] Q: Did he say anything that you now recall [22] other than what you have just mentioned? Page 31 [1] A: No. We did sign a chain of evidence [2] forms. [3] Q: Could you describe that form for me or [4] what you recall about that? [5] A: It was just a form that everybody that had [6] handled the material signed. [7] Q: What happened to that form? [8] A: The agent took it with him. [9] Q: Did you ever have a copy of that form? [10] A: No. [11] Q: Do you remember whether it was typewritten [12] or handwritten? [13] A: It was a regular printed form. [14] Q: Had you seen forms like that before or did [15] it seem as though it was unique for that particular [16] situation? [17] A: It just was that - what the material, you [18] know, film and paper, and he wrote down how many of [19] each thing on it, and stuff and I signed off on [20] it. [21] Q: Did you use forms like that for your other [22] work with the White House? Page 32 [1] A: No. [2] Q: Have you ever signed a form like that [3] previously? [4] A: It pretty much followed like for a [5] classified piece of material. [6] Q: Did you develop photographs previously [7] that had classified information in them? [8] A: No, we just treated everything that we got [9] as semi-classified and just kept it within the [10] unit. [11] Q: Was there a reason of which you were aware [12] for treating most of the material as if it were [13] semi-classified? [14] A: Because the only people that had the right [15] to release it was the White House. [16] Q: After the agent left, did you do any [17] additional work related to any autopsy photos? [18] A: No. [19] Q: Did you do any other work related to the [20] death of the President? [21] A: No. At that point, we started to gather [22] all the negatives and started to make two, 5 by 7's Page 33 [1] of every negative that we had in the library, and [2] then we would start to package them and they were [3] taken away. They were going to take them to the [4] Kennedy Library when it was built. I left before [5] that project was completed. [6] Q: By the way, approximately, when did you [7] leave the NPC for the first time? [8] A: Let's see. It was within two or three [9] months after the assassination. [10] Q: Did you ever see any other photographic [11] material related to the autopsy in addition to what [12] you have already described? [13] A: Just, you know, when they came out with [14] some books and stuff later that showed autopsy [15] pictures and stuff, and I assumed that they were [16] done in - you know, down in Dallas or something, [17] because they were not the ones that I had worked [18] on. [19] Q: Do you recall any books that you have seen [20] with autopsy photographs in them? [21] A: I can't quote the titles of them. [22] Q: But you have seen commercially published Page 34 [1] books with what appear to be autopsy photos in [2] them? [3] A: Yes. [4] Q: Did you ever hear of any discussion [5] related to autopsy photos at NPC? [6] A: No. [7] Q: So, did you ever discuss the fact that you [8] had processed those with Mr. Madonia, for example? [9] A: No. [10] Q: Did you ever discuss it with anyone else [11] your own work? [12] A: No. [13] Q: Or did you hear of anyone else at NPC who [14] had worked on any other autopsy photographs? [15] A: No. [16] Q: Did you have any opportunity to observe [17] the content of the negatives and the prints as you [18] were working on them? [19] A: Yes, I did. [20] Q: Can you describe for me what you saw as [21] best you can recollect? [22] A: Briefly, they were very, what I consider Page 35 [1] pristine for an autopsy. There was no blood or [2] opening cavities, opening or anything of that [3] nature. It was quite reverent in how they handled [4] it. [5] Q: If I can just ask for some clarification. [6] Do you mean that the body appeared to be clean, had [7] been washed? Is that what you are suggesting? [8] A: Yes. [9] Q: And that was different from what you had [10] seen in other autopsy photographs, is that right? [11] A: Yes. In other autopsies, they have the [12] opening of the cavity and the removing of vital [13] organs for weighing and stuff of this nature. The [14] only organ that I had seen was a brain that was [15] laid beside the body. [16] Q: And that was in the photograph of [17] President Kennedy? [18] A: Yes. [19] Q: So there was a brain in the photograph [20] beside the body, is that correct? [21] A: Well, yes, by the side of the body, but, [22] it didn't appear that the skull had been cut, Page 36 [1] peeled back and the brain removed. None of that [2] was shown. As to whose brain it was, I cannot say. [3] Q: But was it on a cloth or in a bucket or [4] how was it - [5] A: No, it was on the mat on the table. [6] Q: Did you see any people in the pictures in [7] addition to President Kennedy, such as bystanders [8] or doctors? [9] A: I don't remember anybody or any real [10] measuring material, instruments, because normally, [11] when you are photographing something like that, you [12] have gauges in there, so that you can determine [13] size and everything. [14] Q: Did you see any cards or any [15] identification markers that would identify an [16] autopsy number or the victim, or something of that [17] sort? [18] A: I don't remember any. [19] Q: Were there any photographs that would show [20] the entire body in one frame, do you recall? [21] A: It seems like there was a full-length one, [22] kind of shot at a 45-degree angle, at a slightly Page 37 [1] high angle. [2] Q: Did you see any photographs that focused [3] principally on the head of President Kennedy? [4] A: Right. They had one showing the back of [5] the head with the wound at the back of the head. [6] Q: Could you describe what you mean by the [7] "wound at the back of the head"? [8] A: It appeared to be a hole, inch, two inches [9] in diameter at the back of the skull here. [10] Q: You pointed to the back of your head. [11] When you point back there, let's suppose that you [12] were lying down on a pillow, where would the hole [13] in the back of the head be in relationship to the [14] part of the head that would be on the pillow if the [15] body is lying flat? [16] A: The top part of the head. [17j Q: When you say the "top of the head," now, [18] is that the part that would be covered by a hat [19] that would be covering the top of the head? [20] A: Just about where the rim would hit. [21] Q: Are you acquainted with the term "external [22] occipital protuberance"? Page 38 [1] A: No, I am not. [2] Q: What I would like to do is to give you a [3] document or a drawing, and ask you, if you would, [4] on this document, make a mark of approximately [5] where the wound was that you noticed. [6] MR. GUNN: We will mark this Exhibit No. [7] 148. [8] [Exhibit No. MD 148 was marked [9] for identification.] [10] THE WITNESS: Probably about in there. [11] BY MR. GUNN: [12] Q: And you have put some hash marks in there [13] and then drawn a circle around that, and the part [14] that you have drawn, the circle that you have drawn [15] on the diagram is labeled as being as part of the [16] occipital bone, is that correct? [17] A: Yes. [18] Q: Did you see any biological tissue, such as [19] brain matter, extruding from the hole that you saw [20] in the back ofthe head? [21] A: No. [22] Q: Was the scalp disturbed or can you Page 39 [1] describe that more than just the hole? [2] A: It was just aragged hole. [3] Q: And it was visible through the scalp, is [4] that correct? [5] A: Yes. [6] Q: Did you see any photographs with the scalp [7] pulled back or reflected? [8] A: No. [9] Q: Did you see any other wounds on the head [10] in addition to the one that you have identified? [11] A: I don't remember any additional. [12] Q: Did you see any photographs that would [13] have shown the right profile of President Kennedy's [14] head? [15] A: I don't remember. [18] Q: Did you see any photographs that would [17] have shown any wounds in either the neck or [18] shoulders or back? [19] A: It seems like I seen - there was at the [20] base of the neck. [21] Q: When you are pointing, you are pointing to [22] the front of your neck to the right side? Page 40 [1] A: Yes. [2] Q: Do you remember approximately how large [3] that injury was? [4] A: Just about the size of like your thumb [5] pressed in. [6] Q: About how much time were you able to look [7] at the photographs, did you get a good observation [8] of them, was it fleeting? How would you describe [9] that? [10] A: It was - they traveled. You placed them [11] on the drum, they would travel around, so after you [12] place it on, probably about 15 seconds or so, they [13] start under the drum and it rotates around, and [14] then they drop off, and you grab them and stack [15] them. So probably just 10 or 15 seconds. [16] Q: Are your observations based upon the [17] prints rather than the negatives? [18] A: Yes. Like I said, the negatives have [19] masking on them, and you don't see too much on a [20] color negative when you are printing. [21] Q: And for the prints to dry, that takes [22] approximately how long? Page 41 [1] A: Probably about two to three minutes by the [2] time it goes on, it goes around the drum. [3] Q: And that is all entirely on the drum? [4] A: Yes. [5] Q: So the prints themselves would not hang [6] from a wire or anything? [7] A: No, they have electric drum, and it puts [8] the ferrotype finish to it. That was before RC [9] papers when you can air-dry them. [10] Q: What is your best recollection of the [11] approximate size of the wound on the throat that [12] you identified before? [13] A: Just about like that, just like a finger, [14] half-inch. [15] Q: Do you remember whether the wound was [16] jagged or how that appeared? [17] A: No, just - it appeared just indented. It [18] was, again, clean, pristine, no - you know, it [19] wasn't an immediate wound, it had some cleaning [20] done to it or something. [21] Q: Were you able to observe any [22] characteristics of the room in which the Page 42 [1] photographs were taken? [2] A: No. [3] Q: Do you remember what the walls looked like [4] or whether they - [5] A: No, everything basically concentrated [6] straight on the body. It didn't appear like the [7] normal medical setting, you know. I don't know [8] whether they did it in a separate room or they used [9] special coverings on their tables or what, but I [10] don't remember, you know, hospital stainless-steel [11] gleaming or anything, or people running around in [12] green scrubs or anything. [13] It was just, like I said, it looked a very [14] reverent laid out arrangement. [15] Q: What is your best recollection as to how [16] long after the autopsy you received the [17] photographs? Let me try and put it in terms of [18] some other events that happened. Do you remember [19] whether you developed the photographs before or [20] after the funeral, for example? [21] A: It was before. [22] Q: Before the funeral. But your recollection Page 43 [1] also is that it was after the black and white cards [2] had been delivered to the White House? [3] A: Right. [4] Q: Do you recall whether it was on a Sunday [5] or a Monday? [6] A: It was sometime over the weekend. It was [7] during the day. I believe the body arrived back at [8] the White House Saturday morning about 1:00 a.m., [9] so - because we had a black and white photograph [10] of it being carried into the White House. It was [11] dark, so it would had to have been - the film [12] would have had to have been shot by that time. [13] MR. GUNN: What I would like to do is ask [14] that the autopsy photographs be brought in and have [15] you have an opportunity to take a look at those. [16] We will take a short break. [17] [Recess.] [18] BY MR. GUNN: [19] Q: Ms. Spencer, what we would like to do is [20] to start with the very first view, which [21] corresponds to color Nos. 29, 30, and 31. [22] Ms. Spencer, could you go to the light box Page 44 [1] and tell me whether you can identify the color [2] transparency of View No. 1 and Image No. 29, as [3] having seen that before. [4] A: No. [5] Q: In what respect is the Image No. 29 [6] different from what you previously saw? [7] A: Like I said, there was none of the blood [8] and matted hair. [9] Q: Can you explain what you mean by that? [10] Are you seeing blood and matted hair on Image 29? [11] A: On the transparency. [12] Q: But that was not present, the blood and [13] matted hair was not present - [14] A: I don't remember. [15] Q: - on the images that you saw? [16] A: No. [17] Q: Would you describe Image No. 29 as a color [18] positive transparency or a color negative? [19] A: This is a color transparency. [20] Q: Ms. Spencer, could you again look at the [21] color transparency and tell me whether, again, you [22] are certain that you did not develop color Page 45 [1] transparencies of the autopsy of President Kennedy? [2] A: No, I did not process any color [3] transparencies. [4] Q: Let's turn to the print. Can you identify [5] the print as being a print that you printed [6] yourself at Naval Photographic Center? [7] A: I don't believe it is. [8] Q: Can you look at the back - turn the light [9] on, please - can you look at the back of the print [10] and identify whether that is the same type of paper [11] as the Exhibit No. 147, that you brought with you [12] today? [13] A: No, it's not. [14] Q: In what respect do you see it as being [15] different? [16] A: The Kodak logo is smaller. [17] Q: So, based upon your experience, would it [18] be safe to say that it is your best recollection, [19] best understanding, that the print of the autopsy [20] that is in the Archives does not correspond with [21] the paper that you were using in November of 1963 [22] at NPC? Page 46 [1] A: Correct. [2] Q: Could you look again at the image of View [3] No. 29? In what respect is the image that you see [4] in 29, in the color print, different from what you [5] observed on the prints that you made at NPC? [6] A: Like I said, the body was pristine, and [7] this has dried blood on the support, the ear, and [8] the hair. [9] Q: Do you recall whether there was a metal [10] holder for the head on the images that you [11] developed? [12] A: I don't remember a metal holder. [13] Q: Do you remember what kind of cloth or any [14] other material was identifiable in the photograph [15] in comparison to what you see on this image? [16] A: As I remember it was a darker cloth. This [17] appears to be a towel over one of the trays, [18] stainless-steel trays. [19] Q: Previously, you said that, if I recall [20] correctly, that the background in the photograph [21] looked different from what you had previously seen [22] in terms of - I understood that you said that it Page 47 [1] didn't look like a hospital. [2] A: Right. [3] Q: Could you describe the photograph that you [4] see in front of you now, whether that is the same [5] sort of background that you noticed in the [6] photographs that you developed? [7] A: Well, it would be the dark background, [8] because normally, when you are doing the autopsies, [9] the overhead lights and stuff are on. It appears [10] that the lights have been turned off and that they [11] were using a flash rather than just overall general [12] lighting. [13] Q: Do you remember, in the photographs that [14] you developed, whether the background was visible, [15] such as the walls? [16] A: No. [17] Q: You don't remember? [18] A: I don't remember, but it appeared that it [19] was darkened, the room was darkened. [20] Q: So, to that extent that the images would [21] seem to correspond to what you recollect - [22] A: Right. Page 48 [1] Q: - the background would seem to, you don't [2] notice any difference? [3] A: No. [4] MR. GUNN: Just so the record is clear, [5] that the one that Ms. Spencer has just been shown [6] is the first view, left side of head and shoulders, [7] corresponding to color Nos. 29, 30, and 31. [8] Could we now see the second view, [9] identified in the 1966 inventory as the right side [10] of head and right shoulder, corresponding to color [11] Nos. 26, 27, and 28. [12] BY MR. GUNN: [13] Q: Ms. Spencer, have you had an opportunity [14] now to look at the second view corresponding to [15] color Nos. 26, 27, and 28? [16] A: Yes, I have. [17] Q: Do those two images correspond to the [18] photographs that you developed at NPC in November [19] of 1963? [20] A: No. [21] Q: In what way are they different? [22] A: There was no - the film that I seen or Page 49 [1] the prints that we printed did not have the massive [2] head damages that is visible here. [3] Q: Putting aside the question of the damage [4] of the head, does the remainder of the body, the [5] face, correspond to what you observed? [6] A: No. [7] Q: In what way is it different? [8] A: The face in the photographs that we did, [9] did not have the stress that these photos - on the [10] face that these photos show. [11] Q: Could you describe a little bit more what [12] you mean by that? [13] A: The face, the eyes were closed and the [14] face, the mouth was closed, and it was more of a [15] rest position than these show. [16] Q: Could you look at the back of the print [17] and see whether that paper corresponds to the image [18] that you brought with you today, please. [19] A: No. [21] these prints are printed on is not the paper that [22] you were using at NPC in November of 1963, is that Page 50 [1] correct? [2] A: Correct. [3] Q: Could we next look at View 3, identified [4] as the superior view of the head corresponding to [5] color Nos. 32, 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37. [6] Ms. Spencer, have you had an opportunity [7] to look at the third view? [8] A: Yes, I have. [9] Q: Do you those two images, again when you [10] are looking at a positive transparency and a print, [11] do those correspond to the photographs that you [12] developed in November of 1963? [13] A: No. [14] Q: In what way are they different? [15] A: Again, none of the heavy damage that shows [16] in these photographs were visible in the [17] photographs that we did. [18] Q: So, just to make sure that I am [19] understanding correctly, previously, in your [20] deposition, you described a wound, a small, [21] circular wound in the back of the head, [22] approximately two inches or so as I recall that you Page 51 [1] stated, whereas, these show a much larger injury, [2] is that correct? [3] A: That is correct. [4] Q: Could you once again take a look at the [5] paper on which the print is made and tell me [6] whether that corresponds to the paper that you [7] brought with you today? [8] A: No. [9] Q: Just so the record is clear, the paper [10] does not correspond to the paper that was used in [11] November `63 at NPC. [12] A: No. [13] Q: Is that correct? [14] A: That's right. [15] Q: Thank you. Could we look at the fourth [16] view, which is identified as the posterior view of [17] wound at entrance of missile height and shoulder, [18] corresponding to color Nos. 38 and 39. [19] Ms. Spencer, do you have the fourth view [20] in front of you now? [21] A: Yes, I do. [22] Q: Can you tell me whether those photographs Page 52 [1] correspond to the photographs that you developed in [2] November of 1963? [3] A: No, it does not. [4] Q: In addition to what you have already said [5] in describing the other photographs, is there [6] anything additional in these photographs that [7] appears to you to be different? [8] A: They are using a measuring device, which I [9] don't remember in any of the photographs that we [10] produced, and I don't remember any hands on the [11] President during any of the shots that we [12] reproduced. [13] Q: Now, could you look at the place on the [14] back of President Kennedy's head that corresponds [15] to where you identified a wound in the back of the [16] head. Do you see that wound present in these [17] photographs? [18] A: No, I do not. [19] Q: Would this view have shown the wound that [20] you previously saw in the photographs of President [21] Kennedy's head? [22] A: Yes. The wound that I seen would have Page 53 [1] been approximately in this area. [2] Q: If we described that as very roughly the [3] cowlick area, would that be fair to say? [4] A: Yes. [5] Q: Could we look at the fifth view now, [6] described as the right anterior view of head and [7] upper torso including tracheotomy wound, color Nos. [8] 40 and 41. [9] Let me try the first question as being [10] whether the paper on the print matches the paper [11] that you brought with you to the deposition today. [12] A: No, it does not. [13] Q: Ms. Spencer, could you look at the wound [14] in the throat of President Kennedy and tell me [15] whether that corresponds to the wound that you [16] observed in the photographs you developed? [17] A: No, it does not. [18] Q: In what way are they different? [19] A: This is a large, gaping gash type. [20] Q: That is, in the fifth view, it's a large, [21] gaping gash, is that correct? [22] A: Yes. In the one that we had seen, it was Page 54 [1] on the right side, approximately half-inch. [2] Q: Is the wound in a different location or is [3] it just a larger wound on the throat? [4] A: It could be just a larger wound. [5] Q: Is there anything else that you can [6] identify in these images that are different from [7] what you observed in November of 1963, on the [8] photographs you developed? [9] A: Right. None of the flooring was showing [10] or anything of that nature. I don't remember any [11] floor. I don't remember any extremely high angles [12] like this. [13] Q: Can we turn to the sixth view described as [14] the wound of entrance in right posterior occipital [15] region corresponding to color Nos. 42 and 43. [16] Ms. Spencer, is there any differences that [17] you noticed between the sixth view, that is now [18] present before you, and those photographs that you [19] saw in November of 1963? [20] A: Yes. They are again using measuring [21] devices that were not in the pictures that we did. [22] The section that appears to be the skull weight, Page 55 [1] the side is not there, and again, there are hands [2] in the background. This is not a photograph that [3] was in the set that we produced. [4] Q: In terms of the locations of the wound, do [5] you see any differences or similarities with those [6] that you developed in November 1963? [7] A: No, there is no similarity. [8] Q: Could we look now at the seventh view [9] described as missile wound at entrance and [10] posterior skull following reflection of scalp [11] corresponding to color Nos. 44 and 45. [12] Ms. Spencer, in November of 1963, did you [13] see any images corresponding to the seventh view [14] that you have in front of you now? [15] A: No. [16] Q: Are you able to identify what that view [17] is? [18] A: It appears to be the opening of the [19] cavity, top of the head, with the brain removed. [20] Q: Could you look once again at the paper for [21] the color print and tell me whether that is the [22] paper that you were using in 1963 at the NPC? Page 56 [1] A: No, it is not. [2] Q: Can we take a look at the eighth view, [3] please. The eighth view is described as the [4] basilar view of brain, corresponding to color Nos. [5] 46, 47, 48, and 49. [6] Ms. Spencer, during your testimony, you [7] said that you had seen an image with the brain [8] present next to the body. Is Image No. 8 the view [9] that you saw previously? [10] A: No. [11] Q: Did you see any work in November of 1963 [12] that resembled the view that you are being shown [13] now? [14] A: No, I did not. [15] Q: Could you look at the paper for the color [16] print and tell me whether that is the paper that [17] you were using in November of 1963? [18] A: No, it is not. [19] MR. GUNN: I think we don't need to take a [20] look at the ninth here, which is the superior area [21] over the brain. [22] BY MR. GUNN: Page 57 [1] Q: Ms. Spencer, you have now had an [2] opportunity to view all of the colored images, both [3] transparencies and prints, that are in the [4] possession of the National Archives related to the [5] autopsy of President Kennedy. [6] Based upon your knowledge, are there any [7] images of the autopsy of President Kennedy that are [8] not included in those views that we saw? [9] A: The views that we produced at the [10] Photographic Center are not included. [11] Q: Ms. Spencer, how certain are you that [12] there were other photographs of President Kennedy's [13] autopsy that are not included in the set that you [14] have just seen? [15] A: I could personally say that they are not [16] included. The only thing I can determine is that [17] because of the pristine condition of the body and [18] the reverence that the body was shown, that - this [19] is speculation on my part - that perhaps the [20] family had the second set shot and developed as [21] possible releases if autopsy pictures were [22] demanded, because at that time, Mrs. Kennedy was Page 58 [1] attempting to keep all sensationalism out of the [2] funeral and maintain the President's dignity and [3] name. [4] Q: Are you able to - let's start with a [5] conjecture as to whether the photographs that you [6] developed, and the photographs that you observed [7] today, could have been taken at different times? [8] A: I would definitely say they were taken at [9] different times. [10] Q: Is there any question in your mind whether [11] the photographs that you saw today were photographs [12] of President Kennedy? [13] A: There is not doubt they are pictures of [14] President Kennedy. [15] Q: Is there any doubt in your mind that the [16] photographs that you saw in November 1963 also were [17] of President Kennedy? [18] A: No, that was President Kennedy, but [19] between those photographs and the ones that we did, [20] there had to be some massive cosmetic things done [21] to the President's body. [22] Q: Do you have an opinion as to whether the Page 59 [1] photographs that you developed in 1963 were taken [2] before or after the photographs that you observed [3] today? [4] A: I would say probably afterwards. [5] Q: So you would think that the photographs [6] that you developed were taken after reconstruction [7] of the body? [8] A: Yes. [9] Q: In the photograph that you saw in November [10] of 1963, with the brain lying next to the body, [11] were you able to observe whether there had been any [12] damage to the brain? [13] A: No, it was not damaged as this brain, as [14] the brain on these photographs were. [15] Q: When you say "these photographs," you [16] means that we just saw today? [17] A: The ones that we just viewed. [16] Q: Ms. Spencer, before we started I said that [19] I would give you an opportunity to add anything if [20] you have any additional statement that you would [21] like to make, and I will just give you that [22] opportunity now. Page 60 [1] A: I had brought along a photograph that was [2] reproduced approximately 10 days prior to the time [3] that we printed the autopsy photographs that we [4] produced at NPC, and because of the watermark and [5] stuff on it does not match those that I viewed, and [6] NPC bought all of a run, which meant every piece of [7] paper within the house would have the same [8] identical watermarking and logo on it, I can say [9] that the paper was not a piece of paper that was [10] processed or printed out of the Photographic Center [11] within that time frame. [12] Like I said, the only thing I can think of [13] is that a second set of autopsy pictures was shot [14] for public release if necessary. [15] MR. GUNN: Ms. Spencer, thank you very [16] much. We appreciate your time in coming all the [17] way from Missouri. Thank you very much. [18] THE WITNESS: I wish I could have [19] identified them for you. [20] MR. GUNN: Thank you. [21] [Off the record.] [22] BY MR. GUNN: Page 61 [1] Q: Ms. Spencer, there is one other question I [2] would like to ask you about, and this is in [3] reference to a document that is labeled Exhibit MD [4] 121, that appears on its face to be a cover sheet [5] and a memorandum signed by James Fox dated February [6] 16, 1967. [7] After we concluded the deposition, I [8] showed you a copy of this document. Did you have [9] an opportunity to read that? [10] A: Yes, I did. [11] Q: Can you tell me, if you wouldn't mind [12] going through the document, and telling me anything [13] that you perceive in the document either to be [14] accurate, that is, as you recall, or inaccurate and [15] different from what your own recollection is? [16] A: Okay. During the time that I saw Agent [17] Fox, he did not have any black and white film with [18] him. The only thing he had in his possession was [19] color film, and he remained with us while we [20] processed it and printed it. It was not printed on [21] different days. [22] Q: Mr. Fox says that this happened on Page 62 [1] November 27th, 1963, which would be approximately [2] five days after the assassination. [3] Does that correspond with your [4] recollection as to when he came to - or when an [5] agent came to the NPC? [6] A: No. My recollection was before the burial [7] of President Kennedy. [8] Q: And in the statement by Agent Fox, he [9] refers to color positives. From what you have said [10] before, that would not be - [11] A: No. [12] Q: - correspond with what you yourself [13] observed, is that correct? [14] A: Right. The only thing that we processed [15] was color negative material. [16] Q: Mr. Fox also refers to going with Chief [17] Robert Knudsen. You knew Mr. Knudsen, is that [18] correct? [19] A: Yes. Chief Knudsen was our liaison boss [20] between the White House and the Photographic [21] Center, he was not with the agent when the agent [22] came, and if he was in the building, he would have Page 63 [1] come up. [2] Q: So to the extent that Mr. Fox is correct [3] in what he makes on the statement, this is not the [4] event that you yourself witnessed, would that be [5] fair to say? [6] A: That is correct. [7] MR. GUNN: Thank you very much. [8] [Signature not waived.] [9] [Whereupon, at 11:40 a.m., the deposition [10] was concluded.] END OF SAUNDRA KAY SPENCER DEPOSITION