Record Number 180-10097-10261 Agency File 010022 Originator-HSCA From: Pool, Nathan Burgess To: Date: 7/12/78 Pages: 44 Date Released: 6/21/93 Subjects: Pool, Nathan Burgess, Testimony before the Committee Parkland Memorial Hospital Connally, John, Treatment at Parkland Memorial Hospital CE-399, discovery of Contents: Withdrawal slip from National Archives; transcript in full of testimony of Nathan Burgess Pool and affidavit of witness to Pool's testimony. Documents follow in full. [National Archives Withdrawal Slip] The item identified below has been withdrawn from this file: File Designation 010022 Date 7/12/78 and 7/13/78 From [blank] To [blank] 2 audiocassettes - Sworn testimony of Nathan Burgess Pool, 7/12 2 audiocassettes - Sworn testimony of George Edward Butler, 7/13 THIS ITEM HAS BEEN WITHDRAWN AND TRANSFERRED TO THE MOTION PICTURE AND SOUND RECORDING BRANCH. [end of Withdrawal Slip] 1 UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS ooOoo Farm Road 660 Box 265 Ferris, Texas 75125 July 12, 1978 10:30 A.M. APPEARANCES: JAMES E. McDONALD, SENIOR COUNSEL House Annex No. 2 Washington, D. C. 20515 ALBERT MAXWELL, STAFF INVESTIGATOR House Annex No. 2 Washington, D. C. 20515 SWORN TESTIMONY OF NATHAN BURGESS POOL [end of page one] 2 Whereupon, NATHAN BURGESS POOL was duly sworn and testified as follows: MR. McDONALD: Good morning. My name is James McDonald, and I am Senior Attorney with the House Select Committee on Assassinations. We are in the living room of Mr. Nathan Pool at Farm Road, 660, Post Office Box 265, Ferris, Texas 65125. Mr. Pool, pursuant to House Resolution 222 and Committee Rule 4 I have been designated counsel empowered to take statements under oath. You have previously been sworn by the court reporter and so, therefore, I'm an attorney who is empowered by the Committee to take your statement under oath. EXAMINATION BY MR. McDONALD: Q: Would you please state your full name for the record? A: Nathan Burgess Pool. Q: And, Mr. Pool, is the statement that you're about to give to the Committee being given to us voluntarily? A: Right. Q: Are you under subpoena? A: No. Q: You do have the right, according to our rules, to have an attorney present during this questioning. I take it by the absence of one that you don't wish to have an attorney present. [end of page two] 3 A: I don't need an attorney. Q: Previously, before we started, I gave you copies of the Committee Rules, and I directed your attention to Committee Rule 4, and also I gave you copies of House Resolutions 222, 433 and 760. Did you have a chance to read those over? A: Yes, sir. Q: And you understand them, what you read? A: Enough. Q: Enough. Thank you. Mr. Pool, are you presently employed? A: Not right now. I am employed with Otis Elevator Company, but I'm not working. I'm on leave of absence right now. Q: And you're on leave of absence for what reason? A: Back surgery. Q: How long have you been employed by Otis Elevator Company? A: Twenty-one years. Q: You started with Otis in 1957? A: '57. Q: Okay. A: February of '57. Q: All right. In what capacity are you employed? What is your position? A: I am a maintenance examiner. Q: And how long have you been a maintenance examiner? A: Since 1961. [end of page three] 4 Q: And what do your duties entail as a maintenance examiner? A: Go to the job. I have a certain group of buildings that I keep oiled, lubricated and cleaned up and in running order, change necessary equipment, contacts and brushes on the generators to keep them in good operating condition. Q: Directing your attention to 1963, November of 1963, was Parkland Hospital one of the buildings on your route, or did part of your duties include Parkland Hospital? A: Yes. Q: Okay. Did they include servicing all of the elevators in Parkland Hospital? A: No, sir. Q: Which elevators were you assigned to? A: Well, I had all of the Otis elevators in the building. There were some Hunter-Hayes elevators. They were actually Montgomery elevators installed by Hunter-Hayes, and they took care of these. There were two -- three of them. Q: Did Otis have an elevator in the emergency room? A: Yes, sir. Q: Directing your attention to November 22, 1963, which was a Friday, was that a working day for you? A: Yes, sir. Q: What time did you go to work? A: 8:00 o'clock [sic]. [end of page four] 5 Q: And where did you report to work? A: I don't remember. Q: Was it your normal course of business to go to the Otis Elevator office or did you go to your first assignment of the day? A: I never go to the office unless I need parts or information or something; go to the first job or whatever job we want to work on that day. Q: All right. Do you recall what was your first job that day? A: No, sir. Q: Was Parkland Hospital on your route that day? A: Ordinarily on a Friday I would be there in the afternoons. Q: What would be the ordinary time that you would go? A: Oh, I'd say around 1:00 o'clock [sic]. Q: All right. Please relate to us the circumstances of how you went to Parkland Hospital on that Friday. First of all, did you go to Parkland in the normal course of your business? A: No, sir. Q: How did you go to Parkland Hospital? A: I was at [sic] Great National Life Insurance Building, which is probably five or six blocks from Parkland Hospital, and my service manager for Dallas [sic] area-- [end of page five] 6 Q: What was his name? A: He's named Mel Flesner. Q: Is that spelled F-l-e-s-n-e-r? A: Yes, sir. --called me. We have the pager system, and he paged me, and I called him and he asked me would [sic] I go to Parkland Hospital to make sure that they didn't have any trouble with the elevators while all of the Kennedy and all of the group were there. Q: What kind of paging system did you have at the time? A: It's called Executone. It belonged to Otis Elevator Company, their personal system that they used. Q: Does it emit a tone? A: A tone. Q: And what did you do? A: Then I called on the phone. Q: When you received this page were you aware of the assassination of the President? A: Yes, Sir [sic]. One of the fellows there in the building had come down. We were-- It was lunchtime, and we were down in the engine room. A guy came down and told us that the President had been shot. Q: And about how long after you were told that the President was shot did you get the page? A: I couldn't be sure, but it seemed to me that it was [end of page six] 7 probably 20 or 30 minutes. Q: Okay. And then what did you do after you got the page? A: I went directly to Parkland. Q: Did you drive in an Otis Truck? A: No, sir. Q: How did you drive? What did you drive? A: I drive my own personal truck and Otis pays me mileage. Q: Okay. Does your truck have Otis written on the side? A: I have a little sign in the window that says, "Otis Elevator Emergency Repair Service." Q: Okay. How long did it take you to drive to Parkland Hospital? A: Two or three minutes. Q: Okay. Describe the scene when you arrived. Which entrance did you go to with your truck? A: I went in the main entrance to the parking lot, and it was the only entrance there at the time on the front. Q: Were there many cars or buses? A: There was [sic] quite a few cars, and there was [sic] a lot of cars trying to get into Parkland that they were turning away. Q: Were you stopped by a police officer? A: I was stopped, and when I told him what I come [sic] over there for he let me go on through. Q: Who stopped you, a local police officer? A: Yes, sir. [end of page seven] 8 Q: In a uniform? A: Yes, sir. Q: And you recognized him as a Dallas police officer? A: Yes, sir. Q: After your stop by the police you proceeded to park your truck? A: I drove around to the back by the emergency entrance. Q: Okay. Where did you park your truck? A: I parked at the loading dock which is just around the corner from the emergency entrance at the time. Q: Okay. What did you see upon arriving at the loading dock? What could you see rleative [sic] to the emergency area, the emergency door? A: I just saw a bunch of people. A bunch of plain clothesmen were all out there. Q: Now, when you say plain clothesmen, what do you mean by that? A: I just assumed that. I later found out that most of them were. Q: And what were they doing? A: They were just running around out there. I don't know. Q: All right. A: The way I got in was when I drove up there the security [end of page eight] 9 for the hospital's name was Pokie Wright, and I couldn't tell you what Mr. Wright's name was, but they called him Pokie Wright. Q: Wright, W-r-i-g-h-t? A: --g-h-t, right. He was outside there, too, and when I came up he took me around and introduced me to someone there in charge. Q: Someone in plain clothes? A: Uh-huh. Yes. And I told him that I was the elevator man and that I'd come over to make certain that they didn't have any trouble with the elevator. Q: Mr. Wright, Pokie Wright, was he dressed in a uniform, a law-enforcement type uniform? A: No. Q: How was he dressed that day? A: I couldn't tell you, but he normally just dressed in a suit. Q: Okay. Did he come over to your truck as you parked the truck at the loading dock? A: Right, because some -- some of the other guys came over and were wanting to know what I was doing there. Q: And you say, "Other [sic] guys," you are referring to plain clothesmen? A: Right. Q: Did they identify themselves to you? [end of page nine] 10 A: Not at that time. Q: Okay. Did they even ask you anything? A: They asked me what I -- what I wanted or what I was doing in there. And, of course, Pokie was right there with them, and he told them what I was doing and everything. I told them that I'd just come over to make certain that they didn't have any trouble with the elevator during the time. Q: What did you do next? Immediately after Pokie Wright explained to these men, how many men were there? Do you recall? A: Well, I'd say three or four there at that time. Q: Do you recall their demeanor? Were they calm, excited; can you remember? A: I'd say fairly calm. Q: Okay. What did you do next? A: They took me in where the little elevator, the emergency elevator was, and this D. C. Tomlinson was operating the elevator, and they told me to go ahead and operate the elevator. Q: All right. About what time did you arrive at the hospital? A: I have no idea. I know it was somewhere around lunchtime because it was-- Well, we were -- we were down and the guys were eating lunch, I think, at Great National when they -- when they came down and said he was shot, so it was somewhere probably around 11:45 or 12:00. [end of page ten] 11 Q: No; he was shot at 12:30. So 12:30 is when the assassination occurred. A: Well, it was - - it was some time after lunch. Now, I don't know -- I don't know if this fellow eat [sic] at 11:30 or 12:00, but I do know that we were down at lunch. They had a ping pong table, and the b uys [sic] played ping pong. I never played, but there were guys that played. They were real serious. They put their tennis shoes on and took their shirts off and got after it. So I remember that they were down there playing tennis when this guy came down and told us. So I know it was lunchtime. Q: All right. Which entrance to the hospital did you go in? A: I went in the main Harry Hines entrance. Q: No, I mean the entrance physically to the building. A: Oh, I went into the side entrance by the emergency entrance. It was-- There is a little side door where the stairway went down. I went inside and right straight on through. Q: Is that side entrance where they would take the emergency patients? A: No. Q: Where was the entrance that emergency patients would go in, as related to the side entrance? A: Possibly 20 feet. [end of page eleven] 12 Q: Okay. Is that entryway still there today? Is it the same? A: No. It's completely changed. Q: Upon entering the building, what did you do? A: We just went down the hallway to the elevator. It was about another 30 feet. Q: Okay. And then what happened? Was anyone there? A: Yes, sir. Q: Who was there? A: There was a fellow there, and I couldn't tell you his name, but when Mr. Wright introduced me to him he told him who I was. He told me to get on the elevator and operate it and not take anyone up on the elevator unless he specifically said I could. Q: All right. You did not know who this gentleman was? A: He identified hisself [sic] as someone with the special services. Q: Secret Service? A: Right. Q: How many Secret Service men were there that gave you instructions? Was it just one, were there two or more? A: Just this one. Q: Just one. A: Now, at different times others came in and out through there, but this is the only one that told me. He told me [end of page twelve] 13 not to take anyone up unless he specifically told me, not anyone up. Q: And where was he stationed? Was he stationed around the elevator? A: Yes, sir. Q: Where was D. C. Tomlinson? A: He was running the elevator. Q: Up till the time you got there? A: Right. Q: What did you do after the Secret Service man gave you these instructions? What did you do? A: We just st ood around out there in the hall because we had the elevator on independent service. And there is no way-- The elevator is in a-- You had to come through a swinging door into where this elevator was, and the hallway in front of the elevator, we just were out in the hallway standing around talking. Q: When you say, "we," who do you mean? A: D. C. and I. Q: All right. Now who is D. C. Tomlinson? A: He was, at that time, the, I guess you call him, power plant engineer. He was in charge of all the heating and air conditioning for Parkland Hospital. Q: Parkland. He was not employed by Otis? [end of page thirteen] 14 A: No. Q: Was it your impression that he was operating the elevator prior to your arrival? A: Yes, sir. Q: After you were given instructions by this Secret Service agent that you were to run the elevator, did the Secret Service agent say anything to Tomlinson? A: No. Q: Could you determine what was Tomlinson's purpose [sic] in standing with you near the elevator? A: Him and I [sic] were just good friends, and we were just standing there talking over the situation. Q: Okay. When you were standing by the elevator were any stretchers in sight? A: Yes, sir. Q: Would you please describe? A: Th ere was one sitting right in front of the elevator that had been-- You have to understand over there whenever one goes up on a stretcher somebody just rolls one back on, and they'll roll one o n there and it comes down and somebody pushes it off in the hall and they just pushed them up against the wall over there and then they'd pull them on down, change the sheets on them. And if they wanted to take somebody else up, they'd have those stretchers back. But it was a rare thing that anyone loaded and [end of page fourteen] 15 brought a stretcher down. You know, they usually just pushed it on there, and whoever come [sic] down pushed it off. Q: So when you arrived at the elevator this stretcher was already there? A: Yes, sir. Q: Okay. What was the appearance of this stretcher? A: It's just a normal hospital stretcher, had a black pad on it and it had a sheet or two on it. Q: Were the sheets smooth? A: No. They had been used. Q: Been used. Were they crumpled up in a pile, a ball? A: Yeah, kind of -- kind of just where they'd been, you know, pulled off and throwed [sic] on there. Q: Were the sheets clean? Could you tell if they were clean? A: No. Some of them was bloody. Q: Okay. Was anyone standing near this stretcher? A: No. Q: Did you have any idea where or who had been on the stretcher? A: No, sir. Q: Did anyone give you any indication? A: Later D. C. told me that Conally [sic] had come in on that stretcher he thought. Q: Okay. What happened next? [end of page fifteen] 16 A: Well, we were just standing there talking and one of us leaned up against the thing and kind of pushed it up against the wall, you know, just -- and this bullet fell out. Q: All right. No, when you say, "leaned up against this thing," I assume-- A: The stretcher. Q: This was the stretcher-- A: Right. Q: --which was there when you arrived? A: Right. We -- we either leaned up against it or just pushed it up against the wall or something. I don't remember just exactly, but I do know that when it hit the wall the projectile fell off there, or the bullet. Q: When you say, "we," who are you referring to? A: D. C. and I, you know. Q: All right. And this stretcher was how far from the entryway to the elevator? A: It was just almost in front of it. I would say, distance-wise, probably four feet to the inside area. Of course, the stretcher is two-foot wide. Q: All right. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) [end of page sixteen] 17 MR. McDONALD: On the record. A: It's similar to the hallway. In other wrods [sic], the swinging door, the two doors right there is where most of the patients come in. Now, the other door right there in front that's the elevator door. BY MR. McDONALD: Q: That is the elevator door. A: Its similar to the hallway. In other words, the swinging door, the two doors right there, is where most of the patients come in. Now the other door right there in front that's the elevator door. Q: That's the elevator door. Okay. A: The other door went into the emergency [sic]. Q: Right here? A: Right. That's where they had Kennedy in there and all of the-- That's where the-- When the people first came in on emergency they run them right in there and -- and then they determine where to, whether to take them up to-- Q: Okay. In this area here, then, is right where an ambulance would back in or pull in. This is on the ground level? A: Right. Q: Okay. But in the area that you were tending the elevator is approximately how long? It looks like a hall. [end of page seventeen] 18 A: It is a hall. Q: Okay. How long would you say that is? A: I'd say 20 feet. Q: All right. And approximately how wide? A: Probably eight foot, maybe ten, at the most. Q: All right. So you and D. C. Tomlinson were you standing by the elevator or were you just moving around? A: We was [sic]-- we was [sic] just standing around out there in the hall. Q: Okay. And was the Secret Service agent present at all times? A: He was right there by that door. Q: Right by this door? A: Between those swinging doors. Q: Between the swinger? A: In other words, right in that area. Q: What would be in this area out here? A: Okay. Let me draw some more. Q: All right. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) MR. McDONALD: On the record. A: This area right back in here it was cut up into little sections where you roll a patient in-- [end of page eighteen] 19 BY MR. McDONALD: Q: I see. A: --like any normal-- Q: Yes. A: All this back in here was just sections of where they roll the people back in there. This are a from on out right here is where the ambulances backed in and come in. Like this, they had a big swinging door right here, and the ambulances back in here. The entrance where I came in was right over here on this side. There was a stairwell went down [sic]. There's a hallway went [sic] back through here that went all the way back to the front end of the hospital. Q: Show me how you got from where you went in to the elevator room. A: I came right through this door right here and right down in-- Q: Oh, I see. Okay. Is that a loading ramp out there? A: This-- In other words, this right here is like this. There's a door over here that comes into the stairwell. There's a door over here that goes into the stairwell. We came in through here, right through there and then right on around over to the-- The loading dock would have been in this area [end of page nineteen] 20 right here, and I pulled in and parked right there. The patient area was right in here. Q: And what is all this in here where you came in the stairwell and came in-- A: Well, I just drew too far out there. Q: Okay. What is it in there, just a hallway? A: It's just a hallway. Q: Okay. A: It is another hallway out there. Q: So in referring to this diagram that we have sketched, you're saying the Secret Service agent was stationed at all times by the swinging doors? A: Right. Q: He was not guarding this door here. A: Well, he was between the two doors. He could have -- He could have watched either door. Q: Okay. And he was present at all times? A: Yeah, all time [sic] I was there he was there. Q: Now getting back to your description earlier where you said you and Tomlinson leaned up against the stretcher-- A: Uh-huh. Q: --or touched it in some manner. A: Well, it might have-- It might have been that it wasn't up against the wall and we just pushed it up against the wall. I don't remember. [end of page twenty] 21 Q: Okay. And you say you heard something fall? A: Right. Q: What was the sound? What did it sound like? A: I just sounded like something hitting the floor, like that-- Q: And what did you do? A: --with a thump. We picked it up off-- Q: What did you do? You say, "we picked it up." A: I don't remember if I picked it up or if D. C. Picked [sic] it up, really. Q: Well, if you can, can you recall whether it was you or whether it was D. C.? A: I certainly can't. MR. McDONALD: Let's go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) MR. McDONALD: On the record. BY MR. McDONALD: Q: It's your testimony that you seem to recall that you're the one who first saw the bullet? A: I think so. Q: Do you remember what you said? A: I said, "There's something fell off here." I said, "I think it looks like a bullet." I said, "I wonder if it's one they were shot with." [end of page twenty-one] 22 And D. C. picked it up or I picked it up, one, and D. C. took it over and gave it to this guy. Q: Do you remember handling it in your hands? Oh, you were holding the bullet. A: I think so. Q: Do you remember what it looked like? A: Uh-huh. Q: Would you please describe it? A: It looked like any G. I. issue bullet to me. It was a fairly long projectile. Q: Are you familiar with guns, yourself? A: Yes. Q: I mean, you've done a lot of hunting? A: Yes, sir. Q: Okay. What kind of guns are you familiar with? A: I've got several rifles, and I've got a 22 and a British 303, five or six shotguns around here. Q: And you were familiar with guns and rifles at that time in 1963? A: Yes, sir. Q: So when you saw the bullet you knew what it was, I would assume. A: Yes. Q: You knew it was a bullet? A: I knew it was a bullet. [end of page twenty-two] 23 Q: Okay. From your experience with handling guns. A: And I knew it wasn't a pistal [sic] bullet. Q: How did you know that? A: From the shape of it. Q: When you looked at the shape what did the shape tell you, as someone knowledgeable about guns? A: I'd say it come [sic] out of a high-powered rifle. Q: Is your British 303 a high-powered rifle? A: Uh-huh. Q: Did it look similar to the kind of bullet that you would use for the 303? A: It was similar, but it's more like a six millimeter of more a European style bullet. Q: The bullet you found was more European? A: Yeah, it was more round nosed than a 303 or a 30.06 or anything like that. Q: In other words, you're saying a 30.06 is made by Winchester or Remington? A: I don't know. Everybody has shells for it. Q: So you're saying the one that you found at the time looked to you more European? A: Yeah. It's a-- It looks like, rather than a 30.06 or a 30.30 or anything like it, it didn't look like a-- Because of the diameter of it, it was small and the length was long, you know. [end of page twenty-three] 24 Q: What condition was this bullet in? A: It looked to me like it was in pretty good condition. It wasn't beat up or anything. Q: When you say, "beat up," what do you mean? A: I mean it hadn't-- Didn't look like it had hit bone or anything like that. It-- And it looked like it probably was a jacketed bullet, you know. Q: Why do you say that? A: Well, by the color of it. Q: And what do you mean when you say-- A: It hadn't expanded any at all, in other words. Q: When you say, "it looked like a jacketed bullet," what do you mean by that statement? A: I mean that a jacketed bullet you have a lid with a metal jacket over it, we call it, to protect or to harden it to keep it from expanding so quick. Q: This one, you say, did not look jacketed or was not? A: It was jacketed. Q: It was? A: I'd say. Q: But the jacket wasn't with it? A: No, it was on it. Q: It was on it. A: Do you understand what I'm talking about by jacketed bullet? [end of page twenty-four] 25 A: [sic] I used to work in an ammunition plant, but I'm not quite sure if I'm following you, so maybe you can explain. A: Well, wait a minute. MR. McDONALD: Let's take a short break. (A short recess was taken.) MR. McDONALD: Back on the record. BY MR. McDONALD: Q: The bullet that you found on the floor or that you observed, and your testimony is that you handled it at some point. A: I'm sure I did. Q: Okay. Would it be that Tomlinson picked it up and handed it to you and then you handed it back or would it be more logical that you picked it up, handled it, and then handed it to Tomlinson? Do you remember? A: It just seems like to me-- It's been so long ago, but it seems like I picked it up, but I'm not sure. Q: Okay. A: It seems like I picked it up and handed it to D. C. and D. C. took it over and gave it to this guy. Q: You do know that you handled it? You're certain of that? A: I'm almost sure that I did. Q: Okay. Do you recall whether there was any blood on the bullet? A: Seemed to me like there probably-- I don't remember if [end of page twenty-five] 26 we could tell or not. Q: Okay. How long did you hold it in your hands looking at it? A: Not long. Q: How about Tomlinson, did he hold it very long? A: No. Q: At the time when it was found you knew that the bullet had come from either one of the two men that had been shot. A: Well, D. C. told me that that was the stretcher that Connally went up on. Q: Okay. A: That was-- Q: All right. So at that time, then, you assumed that bullet was one that had hit Connally? A: Yeah, that's what we figured. Q: Just back-tracking a bit, after you arrived at the elevator area but before you found the bullet, did you have an occasion to take anyone upstairs on the elevator? A: Yes, sir. Q: Who was that? Who did you take up there? A: I don't know. Some Secret Service. Q: It was not the Secret Service man guarding the door? A: No. [end of page twenty-six] 27 Q: When you took this man up did the Secret Service man guarding the door tell you to take him up? A: Yes. Q: And you took him up to what floor? Do you recall? A: I think the second floor. Q: And what happened when you arrived at the second floor? A: I just let him off and came back down. Q: Okay. When the door was open did you observe anything up there? A: No, not really, because of the way the-- There was some [sic] men in the hallway, but there's -- you can't see anything going on. It's because of the way the hall is arranged. It's similar to that, and all of the operating rooms and everything are in back sections, you know, and you can't see. Q: But you recall it was the second floor? A: Uh-huh. Q: How many floors were on that elevator shaft. A: Three. Q: Three. A: Actually four. There was a basement landing, basement and ground. Q: Did D. C. Tomlinson come with you when you took the agent upstairs? A: Yeah. [end of page twenty-seven] 28 Q: Before you took the agent upstairs, was the stretcher against the wall? A: I don't remember. Q: You don't remember. But you do remember seeing it when you were-- A: There is even a possibility that D. C. and I pushed it off the elevator, but I just don't remember. I just remember when we pushed it up against the wall the bullet fell off. Q: All right. If you had pushed it off the elevator, where would the stretcher have come from, the second floor or the third floor? A: There's no telling. Q: On the second floor are there emergency operating rooms? A: Uh-huh. Q: How about on the third floor? A: I think there are operating rooms on-- Hell, I don't remember. Most of the operating rooms were on two, I believe. Q: Okay. A: There was some on three, though. I know all of the maternity was on three, or vice versa. Fifteen years is a long time. [end of page twenty-eight] 29 Q: I understand. After you heard the bullet drop and picked it up and handled it and D. C. Tomlinson-- Do you know what the initials D. C. stand for, by the way? We're calling him D. C. A: (No response.) Q: Okay. After the bullet was found and Tomlinson obtained possession of it, what did he do with it that you observed? What did you observe? A: He took it over and gave it to the guy over by the door. Q: The Secret Service, in your presence? A: Right. Q: Do you recall what he said? A: No. Q: What did the Secret Service agent do? A: He took it through the door and gave it to someone else, I assume. I don't know. Q: How soon after he went through the door did he come back? A: Pretty quick. But I think when D. C. took that over there there was another guy there with him, and the other guy stayed. Q: What do you mean by that? Explain that. A: I mean, I don't think there was ever a time that there wasn't a Secret Service man by that door. [end of page twenty-nine] 30 Q: Okay. At that time what was your understanding as to where President Kennedy was? A: I didn't have any idea except that they hadn't taken him upstairs. Q: Okay. So you knew that he was-- A: I knew that he was in that area. Q: Over here? A: Right. Q: Okay. On the first floor? A: Right. Q: How about Governor Connally; did you have any idea where he was? A: I knew he was up in the operating room upstairs. Q: And how about Jackie Kennedy; did you know where she was? A: No. Q: How about Vice-President Johnson? A: I didn't know. The only thing I knew was that they hadn't taken Kennedy up to an operating room at all. Q: Did you know at that time that Kennedy was dead? A: No. Q: When did you first learn that Kennedy was dead? A: When I saw them roll him out of there. Q: All right. A: You could see through that door straight down that hall. [end of page thirty] 31 Q: This one here? A: Right. That door was open. Q: All the time that you were here with Tomlinson this door was open? A: Right. Q: Was this a double-swinging door or one door? A: I don't believe it even had a door on it. I think it was just an opening. Q: Okay. A: Now, that's a double-swinging door over there. Q: That's going out into the hallway-- A: Right. Q: --that leads to the stairwell? A: Right into the emergency entrance. But that door right there I don't think even had a door on it. Q: So while you were standing in this general area you had a chance to observe what was going on in the-- A: Yeah, you could see down through there. Q: What did you observe? A: You just seen people going back and forth through there. Q: Okay. A: But that's the first time I had any idea he was dead was when they rolled him out of there because they had him covered with a-- Q: With a sheet? [end of page thirty-one] 32 A: No; with a purple cover. Q: Did the hospital reserve purple covers for people that-- A: I don't know. Q: When you handed the bullet to Tomlinson, or when he went to take it to the Secret Service agent, did you ask him not to tell anybody that you were involved or why did your name not come up? A: I told D. C., I said, "You go on over there and give it to them because I don't want to be involved in it." Q: Okay. And what did Tomlinson say? A: He said, "Okay." Q: Now, did you ever see this bullet on this stretcher, itself, before you heard it drop? A: No. Q: In other words, you could not see it. It was not lying on the top of the stretcher? A: No. We don't [sic] know where it come [sic] from. I wouldn't have any idea where it was left. Q: When you leaned up against the stretcher or you pushed it or whatever, was it a violent push or just a-- Do you remember? In other words, was it a sufficient enough shove or push or jar that would have caused something to fall? [end of page thirty-two] 33 A: Uh-huh. Q: And the best you can recall how many stretchers were in that area when you found the bullet? A: It don't seem to me like there was over a couple there, but I can't remember, really. Q: Well, were there more than one? Do you remember? A: I don't remember. Q: You know there was one. A: I know there was one there. Q: Okay. If there were two-- Had you ever been in that area when there was more than one stretcher parked there? A: I've been there when there was [sic] 10 in that area, as many as you could get in that area. Q: And with 10 it would have been fairly crowded? A: Right. Q: Was it crowded at the time you're talking about? A: No, it wasn't. It wasn't crowded. Q: If there had been two, it would have been more crowded. In other words, can you recall just from the perception of the space you had in there whether it was one or two? A: No; I sure can't. But there could have been another one there, maybe even two there. Q: But all the time you were in that area you knew Kennedy was down in the emergency area? A: Uh-huh. [end of page thirty-three] 34 Q: He had not been moved from there? A: Right. Q: So you cannot recall specifically if there was more than one stretcher there? A: No. Q: And if you were to give us your best recollection, how many would you say were outside the elevator? A: I just don't know. Q: Okay. Were you present at all when Governor Connally was taken up to the operating room? A: No. He was already up there when I got there. Q: Did you have any idea, did Tomlinson or anyone tell you when they had taken Connally up there in relation to your arrival? In other words, did anyone say that they had just taken Connally up there? A: He told me they had taken him up there, and he told me that that was the stretcher they had taken him up on. Q: When did he tell you that that was his stretcher, when you saw it parked across the way? A: No. I think when we found the bullet. Q: Okay. I think your testimony was that you knew it was Connally's after you found the bullet? A: I don't remember knowing it before. Q: All right. [end of page thirty-four] 35 Because you testified earlier that it might have been possible that you and D. C. had brought the stretcher down in the elevator. A: It is possible. Q: It's possible. And at that time, if you did bring it down, you wouldn't have known whose stretcher it was, or would you have known? A: I don't see how I would have known unless by D. C. being on there running it when he was on there, see, when I came. He might have known that it was it. But I wouldn't have had any way of knowing it. Q: So you think you knew it was Connally's after the bullet? A: That's what I think. I think D. C. told me after the bullet fell off that it was Connally's. Q: Did he tell you when you were in the process of exchanging the bullet that this came from Connally? A: Yeah. At the time-- At the specific time, I mean, before he ever took the bullet over-- Q: To the Secret Service. A: --to the Secret Service man. He said that that was the stretcher. Q: Do you remember where the bullet fell from the stretcher? In other words, was it in the back up against the wall, to the front, to the side? A: It seemed to me like it fell off the front, but I'm [end of page thirty-five] 36 not sure. Especially the way the stretchers are made, they've got a deal around the outside of them that's kind of a spring. In other words, it's a bumper, and if he bumped it against the wall, it could bounce back and cause it to fall off the front. Q: I see. Do you recall when you bent down to pick it up whether you had much difficulty in retrieving it? A: No. Maybe that's what's wrong with my back. Q: Maybe so. In other words, you didn't have to crawl under the stretcher and reach in behind up against-- A: No. Q: --the wall. A: I don't think so. I think it fell off the front probably. Q: Do you recall when D. C. Tomlinson gave the bullet to the Secret Service agent whether the agent asked-- Do you know whether the agent got Tomlinson's name from him at that time? A: I don't. Q: Okay. As best you can, how many people-- Well, before I ask that question; how long were you stationed at this elevator area in time after you arrived, assuming you arrived-- We're going to have to approximate. You testified earlier that-- [end of page thirty-six] 37 A: I'd say it would probably be around 20 minutes after Kennedy was shot. Q: That you arrived? A: Before I got there. Q: Okay. How long were you there at the hospital in time? A: I stayed until after Kennedy left for probably 15 or 20 minutes. Q: And you knew when Kennedy left because you saw him leave? How did you know it was him? A: Because Jackie was walking along beside him. Q: And you observed them go through the door out to the-- A: Right. Out to the entrance. Q: So in total time that you were at the hospital do you recall how many people you took upstairs on the elevator? A: No, sir. Q: You don't remember how many? A: No. Q: Did you take people up and down? A: Yes, sir, but I don't remember how many. Q: Okay. A: I would say-- I would guess probably not over eight or ten. Q: The first one you took up was the Secret Service agent. A: Right. [end of page thirty-seven] 38 Q: Do you recall who the second was? A: I don't think I took anyone up other than the Secret Service guys. Q: Other than the Secret Service guys? A: No. Q: Do you remember each time that you took someone up the Secret Service agent that was guarding the door would come over to you and tell you it's okay. A: Right. Q: That happened every time? A: Well, see, the little old hallway, he either told me it was okay to take him up or came over there with him and told me to take him up. Because I didn't stay in the elevator. I stayed out in the hall. Q: And the elevator, itself, was on what kind, automatic switch where it could be operated by you? A: Right. What we call attendant operation. Q: So your testimony if that you might have taken up as many as 10 individuals during the course-- A: Right. Q: --of the total time you were there. It was what, a half an hour? A: Probably longer than that. Q: How long would be the total time? [end of page thirty-eight] 39 A: I guess an hour. Q: All right. Did you take many people up on the elevator after you saw Kennedy leave? A: No. Q: Did the Secret Service agents stay there after Kennedy left? A: Yes. Q: Was the Secret Service agent there when you left? A: I'm not sure the same one stayed there, though, but there was a Secret Service agent there. Q: Okay. How did you come to leave your station? What made you decide to leave? Did someone ask you to leave? A: No. I think they just decided that they could put the elevator back on the automatic and guard up wherever this guy was rather than-- Q: Up where Connally was? A: --where Connally was rather than down there. Q: So you took it upon yourself to leave? A: I just asked them it they needed me any further. Q: Okay. And who did you ask? A: I asked the guy out there in the hall, whoever was there, either this same one or another one, and Mr. Wright was still around there. Q: Okay. And what did they tell you? [end of page thirty-nine] 40 A: They said it was all right to go, that they didn't think there'd be any more problems. Q: During the time you were there did you have a uniform on that said Otis? A: Yes, sir. Q: What kind of uniform was it? A: Green. Q: Coveralls? A: No. Q: Shirt-- A: Shirt and pants. Q: It had some kind of patch that said Otis? A: Yes, sir. Q: When you were in this hallway who did you have occasion to observe? Who did you see in the immediate vicinity of Kennedy? You just mentioned Jackie Kennedy. A: When -- when they were coming out I -- Jackie was walking alongside the stretcher when they took him out. That's all I remember. Q: Okay. You didn't by any chance take photographs of Kennedy or anything? A: No. Q: I'm almost done, Mr. Pool. Do you recall the name of the Secret Service agent standing near the door? [end of page forty] 41 A: No. Q: Okay. A: I can't even remember your name and you introduced yourself just a few minutes ago. Q: Okay. A: If you had a place to quail hunt or a place to fish, I could remember your name, but other than that I don't remember names. Q: All right. Did the elevator have any trouble? A: No. Q: Had it been serviced recently? A: Yeah, within the week. We'd have a weekly contract to service them, and I checked it at least within the week. Q: And to put the elevator on attendant's service you just what, flip a switch? A: Key switch. Q: Key switch, okay. And the hospital has that key-- A: Right. Q: --as well as you? When you left the scene at the hospital was D. C. Tomlinson still there? A: Seemed like D. C. had left. Q: Okay. Did he stay with you generally? A: He was at the hospital, but he had left the [end of page forty-one] 42 emergency area. Q: How soon after the bullet was found and he handed it to the Secret Service did he leave? A: I'd say it was at least 20 minutes. I don't really think he left until after Jackie and the President went out. Q: Do you recall why he was staying around? Was it mainly just to observe what was going on? A: Yeah, just nosy, probably. Q: If when [sic] you took people up on the elevator, Secret Service agents, did D. C. Tomlinson go with you every time? A: I think he went every time. Q: And who was actually doing the operating of the elevator? A: I was. Q: What would he do; just stand in the elevator? A: Rode up with me. Q: And any time when you went up to second or whatever floors you went to did either you or he ever get off the elevator? A: No. Q: When you would let these individuals off, the Secret Service agents, as you've described them, were there other agents on the floors? A: Yes, sir. Q: Right in the vicinity of the elevator? [end of page forty-two] 43 A: Yes, sir. To the best of my knowledge there was. I don't ever remember going to a floor where there wasn't one. Q: Can you recall what the demeanor of those agents was? A: They seemed fairly calm to me. MR. McDONALD: Mr. Pool, I have no further questions. I thank you for your time. THE WITNESS: Well, you're welcome. I just wish I could remember everything as it happened, but 15 years is a long time to remember. MR. McDONALD: I understand that. Well, we thank you for your consideration and the time that you have given us this morning. That concludes this deposition. (Whereupon, at 11:25 A.M. the testimony was concluded.) [end of page forty-three] C E R T I F I C A T E STATE OF TEXAS ) ) COUNTY OF TARRANT ) I, Ruth Dulock, a Notary Public in Tarrant County for the State of Texas, being the Notary Public before whom the aforegoing testimony of NATHAN BURGESS POOL was taken, do hereby certify that the witness was first duly sworn by me to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that the above and foregoing is a true and correct transcript of said testimony. GIVEN UNDER MY HAND and the seal of office on this the 14th day of July 1978. /s/ Ruth Dulock Ruth Dulock Notary Public in Tarrant County for the State of Texas My Commission expires 9-29-79. [end of page forty-four and end of document]