THE WEAVER ATROCITY 1/5 as received from Knight Rider #19 @3055 The following series of posts are a transcript of a on air interview between Chuck Harder (host of the For The People Show), and James Bo Gritz, that appeared in the October 5, 1992, FOR THE PEOPLE News Reporter.... C H U C K H A R D E R I N T E R V I E W S J A M E S " B O " G R I T Z : T H E W E A V E R F A M I L Y K I L L I N G S O N R U B Y R I D G E Transcript and Comments by RICHARD D. OSBORN On August 21 and 22, 1992, first the son and then the wife of Randy Weaver were shot and killed--some say murdered--by Government agents at the Weaver home on Ruby Ridge, near Naples, Idaho. The senseless and needless killings, and events leading up to them, received worldwide attention. Ultimately they involved the mediation efforts of Lieutenant Colonel James "Bo" Gritz, one-time member of the Green Berets. Chuck Harder interviewed Colonel Gritz at length concerning Gritz's first-hand experience with the Weavers and the Federal Government. What follows is a partial transcript of that interview, which aired on Chuck Harder's For The People radio program on September 2. * * * CHUCK HARDER: I'm going to talk to a gentleman who got his picture in the paper--Colonel James "Bo " Gritz. Colonel are you there? JAMES "BO" GRITZ: Yes, I am, Chuck. C.H.: Colonel, I understand that a very unfortunate thing went on out west. We have played it this way: We have played it that, quiet frankly, we haven't had anybody there, other than, now, You telling us what happened on a first person basis We've seen all kinds of stories in the newspapers and on the wires, and of course those stories are from different perspectives. From what we can determine, it was absolutely a tragedy that didn't have to happen. Let me start there and just simply say: Tell us what happened, Colonel Gritz. Vicki Weaver is killed J.B.G.: Well, again thank you. I was there and was able to negotiate out the Weaver family with no further bloodshed. Of course [U.S.] Marshal Degan was killed on Friday. Then on Saturday the wife, Vicki, was killed, and... well, I should go back. Marshal Degan was killed on Friday. And the son, Samuel, was killed on Friday. He was a fourteen year old boy. And then on Saturday, of course Vicki, the mother, was killed, and Kevin, a family friend, was severely wounded. And Randy, also the father, took a bullet through the arm, but it was minor. This... this whole thing was precipitated by a firearms charge. The BATF and a "Snitch" A "snitch" went to--from the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms)-- went to a judge and said that Randy had sold him a shotgun that was a quarter inch too short. Very likely that happened. I don't know. Randy is a very honest person. And he said that the Feds wanted [him] to infiltrate the Aryan Brotherhood. He's been up there in a cabin that he and his wife built with their own hands for nine Years. And the Aryan Nations has a headquarters through a church called Church of Jesus Christ, Christian--Aryan Nations up there. And Randy said he went to two of the church meetings and then he didn't want anything to do with it, and so he just refused to go further. As a way of pressuring him, they [the Government] brought this firearms charge against him. All of that happened back in 1990. He refused, or he didn't come down for a court date in February of 1991. So eighteen months went by. And as a matter of fact, in the interim, he ran for sheriff. The Feds came up to his place. They were buying timber land, in adjacent blocks to his. And so there was a communication. Randy didn't have any water in his cabin. It was from a spring just down from the cabin. They grew their own food up there, basically, from a garden. There was no electricity. They heated everything with wood. And so six marshals, on Friday, a week ago, from Washington, D.C.--they were from the Special Operations Group--were on the Weaver land. They were camouflaged, and they were there to do tactical reconnaissance. I learned all this from the Government. "You are Killing my Dog" And then the dogs. Randy, of course, like a lot of people up there--they had hunting dogs. There is bear out in the woods, and one thing and other. There were two dogs that were tied. There was one family dog--he's trained to draw water in the winter, and pull a sled up the hill when it's so difficult to get down the road. You gotta have a four-wheel drive vehicle. It is a logging road that leads up to Randy's cabin. And so there's no question they were separationists. They liked to be away. The marshals were there. The dogs apparently discovered them, and started chasing something down the hill. Young Sammy-- and Randy, I believe, is being truthful--said that Sammy thought at first it was a deer, and so he ran out with his 30.06. Kevin followed him. And then Randy followed Kevin. As they were running down this rather steep logging trail, Sammy saw the marshals, who were in camouflage at that time, and had announced themselves: they turned and shot the dog. Sammy-- fourteen years old--cried out, "You are killing my dog" and fired his rifle in the direction. At that time they [the Government agents] shot Sammy in the arm. They had M-16 assault rifles. Sammy Shot in the Back He [Sammy] turned around and started to run back up the hill, at which time he was shot in the back, and died on the spot, in the logging trail. C.H.: Wait, wait, wait, a minute. Let me stop you right now. What right would Federal Government marshals have to shoot a fleeing fourteen-year-old boy in the back? J.B.G.: Well, I guess the only right was that, uh, that they were shooting the dog and the boy did--there's no question, Kevin, very truthfully said that he heard, uh, he heard gun shots and then he heard, uh, Sammy call out an expletive delete. He said, "You are killing my dog." And he fired in their direction. And then he was shot in the arm, instantly. And then was slain as he was running back up the hill. C.H.: But weren't they trespassing on his land? J.B.G.: They did not--I have learned this from the Government--Chuck, they did not have a search warrant. They did not have an arrest warrant. They were there, in camouflage, in order to conduct a tactical reconnaissance. They were not local marshals, stationed in Idaho. They came from Washington, D.C. C.H.: Hang on just a minute, please, Colonel James "Bo" Gritz, giving us a first hand account of what happened. My, My, what a shame. We'll be right back. Marshal Dies C.H.: My guest is Colonel James "Bo" Gritz. He is the man who finally negotiated and stopped the bloodshed, regarding the terrible situation in Idaho. Colonel Gritz we were at the point, now, where apparently six Federal marshals, or BATF marshals, were in camouflage. They were on the Weaver's property, not only uninvited, but they had apparently no search warrant. They were doing, as you say, a reconnaissance. The dogs discovered them. Now we are at the point where the Weaver boy reacts to them- -shoots in their direction. They shoot him in the arm. He flees. Then they shoot him in the back. He dies instantly. And I think that's where we're at. J.B.G.: Well, Kevin, the family friend, rounded the bend next. He saw what was happening. He fired his rifle in the direction of the marshals. Between the one shot that he fired and the one shot that Sammy fired, Marshal Degan--from Washington D.C., the Special Operations Group--was hit and killed. Both Randy and Kevin then ran back up the hill to the cabin. About fifteen minutes later, they came out because the Mom--she was not going to leave her son down on that trail. And so Vicki led the party. The three of them went back down and recovered-- and there was no gunfire at all--and recovered Sammy's body. They took the body up. There's a small storage house--they call it a birthing house--that was adjacent to their cabin. They placed the body in plastic, inside that storage house. Then there was nothing else happened on Friday. All this was around noon time. Randy and Kevin Wounded Vicki is Killed On Saturday the dogs that were tied, that weren't shot, began to bark again, and so Sara, the 16-year-old daughter, along with Kevin and Randy, went outside to see if there was anything they should be concerned about. Randy went over to unlatch the birthing house door, to see if his son's body was alright. As he reached up, a bullet went through his arm, the back of his right shoulder, and exited under his right armpit. I dressed it myself. It really wasn't a harmful wound, even though it could have been. At that time, the Mom--Vicki--was holding open the door--the door swings open the right. Her right hand was against the back door. It has windows--four panes of glass in it. She yelled to them--the family--"Get back in the house." They were only about ten yards away, at the little storage building. And so Kevin was first, followed by Sara, and then followed by Randy. The Mom, Vicki, had Alishaba, who was eight months old, cradled in her left arm. Now as Kevin came in the door first, a large caliber bullet--I'm an expert on these ballistics--and this thing had a hole in the pane of the glass that was at least a half an inch across. A large caliber bullet crashed through the window, hit Vicki in the head, did massive damage, killed her instantly. She fell to the floor. The baby was not injured. But the same bullet went all the way through Kevin's arm, giving him a grievous wound. And then there was another wound just under the nipple of his right chest, and I believe that that was also a part of the same round. They were not shooting back. They were fleeing back into the cabin. And so there were no shots fired, other than that, on Saturday. And of course I got involved on Wednesday, when the FBI called me in Phoenix, wanting to know if I would make an audio tape for Randy, and I did, and on the audio tape I said I would be there the next day. The New World Order A Kinder Gentler Nation I didn't know Randy other than he was at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, as a young Special Forces sergeant in 1969, when I came back from Vietnam. But it looked like he was in trouble. And I know how the Government works. What we did up there, Chuck, was get a little glimpse of a kinder, gentler nation, wherein we have enforcement officers, not peace officers. I believe it was.... George Bush [who] had been talking about how we have changed the world. We've got to change America. I don't like what I saw of this New World Order up on that mountain. C.H.: What happened to the family values I heard them babbling about at the convention? J.B.G.: Well, immediately--see, this shows you how this New World Order is going down hill so rapidly. Instantly, the governor proclaimed a disaster. He said it was disaster emergency. He proclaimed an extreme emergency. He placed two counties around there under marshal law. Now, without ever coming up and looking the situation over, he surrenders that part of Idaho to the Federal forces. I don't think I would want a governor like that, who wouldn't.... at least look in on the situation. Citizens Arrest But I arrived up there on Thursday. The Government wouldn't talk to me. So, we arrested them on Friday. And I know it sounds weird, but you see you've got to--extreme cases require extreme reaction. I wrote out a citizen's arrest warrant, with help from some people who have done this before, of I.R.S. agents who have broken into people's homes with no proper authority, in Hawaii. They helped me and they faxed me the documents. It worked. We served an arrest warrant, a citizen's arrest, on the F.B.I. agent in charge. His name was Gene Glen. He turned out to be a real gentleman in the end. But he was plain Government in the beginning. Also, the governor of Idaho. Mr. Sessions, the head of the F.B.I., and the head of the U.S. Marshal Service. There weren't any BATF reconnoitering Randy's home when all this happened on a Friday. These were U.S. marshals from the Special Operations Group exclusively. And so after we arrested them all, they called me back behind the police line and wanted to know what I thought I could do that their trained experts couldn't, and I mentioned, "Well, I've got you here talking to me, that's the first thing." So then, and I, again we just have to praise God. I know you can't say God on television anymore. I hope we can on talk radio. C.H.: You bet. Don't Let the Body Touch the Ground J.B.G.: At any rate, in all honesty, I'm just here to tell you we.... There were about 200 people that maintained a vigil from the very beginning until the 11-day siege was over. Every morning, as I would go up, I would give them an agenda: Here's what we want to do. Everyone prayed. We didn't pray the family would walk out on the first day. We just prayed we would get past the Government. And then we prayed that we could get Kevin out of there. Or we could talk to the family, and then get Kevin out before he died, which we did-- and I don't think any too soon. And then on the last day--I hate, well, it makes me sound weird--but on the day--actually the morning--that we got Randy out, it was 2:30 in the morning. I had just gotten to bed after midnight. And I literally had a vision that.... In my sleep I saw us walking out of that cabin at noon, with all of us hands joined. And we walked down the hill un- accosted by the Federal forces. I woke up Immediately; I called my wife at 2:30 in the morning. I said, "Get on a airline. We're going to be out of here at noon." And I went down the hill that morning. I made the announcement to the people that I wanted them to pray that Randy would open the door. I was rather disappointed when we got there. Randy wouldn't open the door like he had, because, see, we had to open the door in order to get Kevin out. C.H.: Umhuh. J.B.G.: And then we had to open the door. And I personally carried his bride, who had laid on the kitchen floor, in a pool in blood, for ten days at that time. C.H.: Oh, dear God. J.B.G.: They did not want.... And those babies were in the house.... Oh, it was horrible. They did not want their Mom.... They were very religious. They were like Quakers. All the children, and the Mom, wore these long dresses. You couldn't say God; you had to say Yahweh. You couldn't say Jesus Christ; you had to say Yeshua. I learned to speak their language while I was up there. They didn't want the Mom's body to touch the ground, so I put her over my shoulder and carried her down a long set of stairs that led up to their cabin. And it was really a difficult situation. Buckets of Water But when I thought I had a good rapport, because they had let me in to help get Kevin out, they had let me in to get the Mom out. And a lady went up with me. What a valiant soul she was. Jackie cleaned.... She scrubbed the floor. The F.B.I. were a little disappointed because, they said, it disturbed the crime scene. But she went in there with buckets of water. And she scrubbed that whole kitchen floor that was just covered in blood. And what a wonderful soul. Then the next day, though, we went up to get Kevin out to get Randy out, and the children--and he just said,"Bo, we're not going to open the door to you today. They killed my son. They killed my wife. The marshal has been killed. They can just kill me. Because we are not coming out until the ninth of September." A Note Under the Door Well, I knew the Government would never let them stay up there that long. And so.... They were preparing to make an assault, anyway. And I said, "Why the ninth of September?" And he tied it all in to some Biblical mathematics--the New World Order, George Bush, some agreements that Bush had made with Russia. Anyway, I'm fairly familiar with the Scriptures, so, in helping him to adjust his mathematics--plus we had letter from some of the supporters, and I know it's ironic but there were some "skinheads" that were down at the bottom of the hill, that were friends of Randy. And I asked them to write a letter. Jack McLamb, who was there and did a wonderful job helping. He actually wrote the letter. The one boy said, "I don't write to well." And so Jack wrote the letter that said, "Listen, we don't want this battle to be fought on top of your hill. Randy, we want the war to be won in the court system, with a jury of peers. Please come down with no further loss of life." When he wouldn't let me in the door, I slipped this little letter through a crack in the door and it honestly helped to soften his heart. But the glory has to go God almighty. It was a miracle. The bottom line is: Eventually, we were able to get them to open the door. Matter of fact, it was 12:15. And I explained the vision I had had to them. We joined hands; I took Randy by his right hand--he had Alishiba cradled in his left arm. Jack McLamb took Rachel, who was 11. They all had pistols strapped to their sides. I counted fifteen weapons in the cabin. They were certainly prepared--either for self-destruction or to die in place, under a Government assault. "Get the Cuffs Off" We all joined hands. An Sara, taking Jack's other hand. And we walked down that long flight of stairs. The F.B.I. had agreed to lay not a hand on us until we got Randy down off of this hill. And we walked past those assault troops, and to down to where we had agreed. And the only thing that happened that wasn't in accordance to the Government's agreement was, once we got Randy on a stretcher--he had a bullet through his arm, but he said "Yahweh had healed it." And sure enough, he had--[but] we still laid him on a stretcher. A marshal ran up and locked hand- cuffs onto the stretcher and onto Randy's wrist. And l objected. The F.B.I. backed me up and said, "Get the cuffs off." And so they did. It actually was a miracle. And I was just so thrilled to see.... When you've got 500 troops up there, they are all wearing Kevlar... C.H.: What, what... slow down, slow down, slow down. You're telling me that the United States Government brought 500 troops... J.B.G.: Oh, yes. They had the National Guard, with helicopters. We had armored vehicles. The F.B.I. had their... I'm glad they were there... C.H.: Wait a minute, wait minute. Forgive me. How is it that they can get 500 troops so fast to a remote cabin in Idaho, but they are still trying to get their act together in south Florida after Hurricane Andrew? What's going on here? J.B.G.: Well, I believe, Chuck, that this thing was premeditated. I think they honestly--and I have some reason to believe this, in talking with some of the Federal officials that were on the site--I have reason to believe that this thing was actually a planned operation. I don't think they planed to have 500 troops there. But they certainly planed to make military type raid on the Weaver home. And it was just unfortunate that the reconnaissance resulted in the death of Marshal Degan. Jerry Spence to Defend Weaver C.H.: But wait a minute. But wait a minute. This is all over one shotgun that was a quarter of an inch too--too short? J.B.G.: And it was all over Randy not showing up for trial. But you see, this is not the only case. I got a hold of Jerry Spence. He is a rancher in Wyoming. But if Perry Mason lives, it is in the form of Jerry Spence. C.H.: Well, let's do this. We have about a minute till the half hour break. Kind of set this up, if you would, and then let,s get the break by, and I want to hear the rest of the story. J.B.G.: Okay. But Jerry Spence has agreed to defend the Weavers. And so I think that Jerry is going to discover that the real harm was not by the people shooting each other on top of the hill. The real abuse is in the bureaucracy in Washington, D.C. They decided to escalate this thing without proper warrants and notifications to the Weaver household. C.H.: Now, couldn't there have been--we're going to go to break; but when we come back my question first of all is: What would have given the Federal Government reason to believe with just a very simple firearms situation--what would give them reason, first of all, to take such action? That's my first question. My second question is: Have there been any answers or explanations about why they shot a fourteen-year-old boy in the back? And why they shot the wife and these people who obviously were not shooting at them? Have there been any explanations at all? C.H.: Okay. By the way, I think it's important--very, very quickly--to explain to your supporters that we are going to try to find a way to get you your own broadcast on this network. J.B.G.: And I'm more than willing to do it. I have been intending to do it. It is just things like the Weavers and a few other things have kept us from making the final details. But we'll certainly do it. C.H.: We are going to work out the details but I think it is important that your supporters hear that that from you that this is going to happen. J.B.G.: It certainly is going to happen. Again, I have all the faith in the world in First Amendment talk radio. It's the only media where you actually get a chance to learn the fullness of the truth. C.H.: Yes. Alright. So here we are, now, in this Weaver situation that happened.... This is Naples Idaho, right? J.B.G.: Well it's actually a little place called Ruby Creek. That was the creek that ran down from the mountain on which Randy's house was atop. And then it ran into Deep Creek, which was down in the.... The nearest town is Naples. It is about eight miles away. C.H.: Okay. Now, here we have a situation where the fourteen year old boy was shot in the back. The wife was shot without apparently any provocation. What does the Government say about that? J.B.G.: The Government is making no comment. And I think they are making no comment very wisely because I believe there was total abuse and indiscretion. To shoot the boy.... I can understand if someone is shooting at you, you return fire. The marshals were wrong being up there. The marshals were wrong, I believe in shooting the dogs. And so if I were a boy and had a pet that literally... that we depended on to bring water to the top of the hill.... that had been my friend most of my life, I would have been very, very angry. And I probably would have shot at the marshals myself. Once they hit him in the arm, it was obvious. He cried out-- Kevin was right behind him--he cried out a loud cry, and he turned around and he started to run back home. He had been shot in the arm. And so at that time there was no reason to shoot him in the back. But they did. And so.... People get very excited. I saw a lot of excitement while I was up there. Most of the troops were dressed, as I say, in camouflage and Kevlar. They were wearing assault gear and assault rifles. They don't look like they want you to come out. They look like they want to come in and get you. As a matter of fact when Vicki was shot that.... [was] absolutely irresponsible, because the Weavers had not fired a single round, and.... First of all, without warning, without calling out, they shot from a sniper position. The shot [hit] Randy [and went] through the shoulder. And then a person in a different location, on the side of the hill, probably about--I estimated between 200 and 300 meters away--fired a very heavy caliber gun that went right through the window pane and struck Vicki. It could have killed Alishaba. Little Sara was just one half step behind Kevin. The same bullet did put a very grievous injury to Kevin's arm. So they [the Government] were totally irresponsible. The family was running back into the home, posed no threat at all to those who were outside. "I Don't Support the Aryan Nations People" C.H.: In some of the newspaper accounts that we have looked at--and I'll read one here to you, if I may--it says, "Weaver supporters are being urged to converge on Naples, forty miles South of the Canadian border, by third-party presidential candidate and Las Vegas area resident " Bo" Gritz, a former Green Beret; Richard Butler, founder of the Idaho-based Aryan Nations: and Tom Metzger, head of the California-based White Aryan Resistance." Now this makes it sound like, Colonel Gritz, like you are aligned with the Aryan Nations people. C.H.: Okay. Now, here we have a situation where the fourteen year old boy was shot in the back. The wife was shot without apparently any provocation. What does the Government say about that? J.B.G.: The Government is making no comment. And I think they are making no comment very wisely because I believe there was total abuse and indiscretion. To shoot the boy.... I can understand if someone is shooting at you, you return fire. The marshals were wrong being up there. The marshals were wrong, I believe in shooting the dogs. And so if I were a boy and had a pet that literally... that we depended on to bring water to the top of the hill.... that had been my friend most of my life, I would have been very, very angry. And I probably would have shot at the marshals myself. Once they hit him in the arm, it was obvious. He cried out-- Kevin was right behind him--he cried out a loud cry, and he turned around and he started to run back home. He had been shot in the arm. And so at that time there was no reason to shoot him in the back. But they did. And so.... People get very excited. I saw a lot of excitement while I was up there. Most of the troops were dressed, as I say, in camouflage and Kevlar. They were wearing assault gear and assault rifles. They don't look like they want you to come out. They look like they want to come in and get you. As a matter of fact when Vicki was shot that.... [was] absolutely irresponsible, because the Weavers had not fired a single round, and.... First of all, without warning, without calling out, they shot from a sniper position. The shot [hit] Randy [and went] through the shoulder. And then a person in a different location, on the side of the hill, probably about--I estimated between 200 and 300 meters away--fired a very heavy caliber gun that went right through the window pane and struck Vicki. It could have killed Alishaba. Little Sara was just one half step behind Kevin. The same bullet did put a very grievous injury to Kevin's arm. So they [the Government] were totally irresponsible. The family was running back into the home, posed no threat at all to those who were outside. "I Don't Support the Aryan Nations People" C.H.: In some of the newspaper accounts that we have looked at--and I'll read one here to you, if I may--it says, "Weaver supporters are being urged to converge on Naples, forty miles South of the Canadian border, by third-party presidential candidate and Las Vegas area resident " Bo" Gritz, a former Green Beret; Richard Butler, founder of the Idaho-based Aryan Nations: and Tom Metzger, head of the California-based White Aryan Resistance." Now this makes it sound like, Colonel Gritz, like you are aligned with the Aryan Nations people. J.B.G.: Well, I'm not aligned at all with the Aryan Nations people. I don't support the Aryan Nations people. As a matter of fact, ironically, Randy Weaver does not support them either. He was asked by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms to infiltrate Butler's church. And he did attend, he told me.... very, very truthful.... Matter of fact he's truthful to.... I think, to a fault. Kevin said he killed the marshal. And I said, "How in the world can you say that, Kevin? How do you know it wasn't Sammy?" And Kevin said, "Well, they were shooting at Sammy and I shot back at them and I think I killed a marshal." And I said, "Kevin, I have been given 62 citations for valor. I know what it's like to meet in combat. If you were to shoot a bullet at fifty people, they would all hit the ground. Have you killed them all? No. They're reacting to your gunfire." Weaver No Informer So they have been very, very truthful. Randy said that the BATF had wanted him to infiltrate [the Aryan Nations]. He went to two of the meetings. And then he said that he didn't want anything to do with them. So he told the BATF he would not be an informant for them. And is why the pressure was put on him about the sawed-off shotgun. The point is: Randy is a separationist. And I asked the media--because they were constantly referring to this [event] as [the work of] some kind of radical white supremacist. I said, "Listen, I'm white. God made me this way. Randy lives eight miles from the nearest bread and milk. I live fifty miles. I live out in the little desert air strip called Sandy Valley, fifty miles southwest of Las Vegas. Does that make me a white separationist?" And they Just continue to want to play up.... There's no question, the Aryan Nations--this Butler church located--I don't even now where--but it's, oh, it's probably within thirty or forty miles of there. And so.... I think the media, because it looks better, or whatever, were pressing at him. Butler did come up there. I saw him one time, briefly. He was in the crowd. And they did have some skin heads that came up there. And I even saw one girl, on the last day. I think she probably came from Las Vegas. Her hair was all teased up. A "scare-do," I think they call it. And she had a swastika on her arm. I don't know that any of this related to Weaver. Extremists were Imported C.H.: I think it's very unfortunate that the press sometimes will say things about people when they really haven't checked it out. Because what they said here is, "The week long standoff between Federal agents and fugitive white-supremacist Randy Weaver is attracting extremists and the kind of attention that gives northern Idaho a bad name, some local residents said Friday." I mean.... Boy, I'll tell you. How do you follow an opening statement like that? J.B.G.: Well, most of the people up there who were the extremists, they were imported. They came from Nevada. They came from the other states. Again, Randy wanted to be away. Now I know that it's almost un-American if you are any more than walking distance from a Seven-Eleven, or more than about five miles from a mall. But again, I think that I'm as much an extremist as Randy when it comes to just wanting to be away from the hustle and bustle of a city. * * * From this point in the interview forward, Chuck and Colonel Gritz discussed the Weaver's religion and their First Amendment rights. In addition they discussed the incredible amount of force, including an armed robot, the Government brought against the Weaver family. Chuck and Colonel Gritz also discussed a number of other important subjects and issues, including how this sort of thing could happen to you. What you have read above is less than half of the full exchange between Chuck and Colonel Gritz. He had a garden, they built a home with their own hands. And they were living very primitively. You got to remember his Religion was extreme, and of course nothing wrong with that under first amendment--he referred to [God] as "YHWH."-- I had a hat on, that had a pine tree imprinted on it. When I offered it to one of the little girls--because the sun was very hot as we started to walk down from the cabin, she couldn't accept it because she said "that was a graven image, and they can have nothing to do with that." So there's no question-- they couldn't use words like "Glory" because that was a "Failed God" at one time. They were extreme--but is there anything wrong with that? C.H.: Well, we do have many, many different Religions in this country uh, uh, that have their own beliefs, bless them all. We have the Mennonites, we have the Quakers uh, uh, golly gosh, there's, there's so many different uh, what is Amana Iowa--what is the uh, uh, Religion there? J.B.G.: Amish uh, C.H.: Amish, that's right. J.B.G.: Yea, they don't use cars uh, they seem to live in peace. C.H.: Alright, so.... I mean, who are we uh, here we are the supposed Black, White, and Hispanic uh, multitude that are raping the Earth uh, polluting it, who are we to judge somebody else who wishes to live in peace with God. I'm sorry, but I can't uh, I cannot for a moment judge my fellow man. I don't have that capacity uh, I want to assist my fellow man, but I'm not going to condemn anybody. Uh, Colonel Gritz a short if you please, For The People continues right after this, don't go away. [STATION BREAK] They had a robot there C.H.: Colonel James "Bo" Gritz is my guest. Colonel Gritz of course, one of the things I think has to be put in perspective in this story is the power of the United States Government. You know, uh, the United States Government regrettably, although it's broke--it also has all of the uh, all of the assets that the taxpayers have given it, Uh, not necessarily have they happily done so but they done it at gunpoint perhaps. And, uh, here we have the United States of America versus a family living in a log-cabin in the middle of nowhere. Uh, what kind of assets did they bring up there in in this uh, you know, you're telling me that had all of these men in camouflage, did they have any other kind of special equipment? J.B.G.: Well besides armored vehicles uh, and, helicopters uh and, again just about everything expect to find on a modern day battle field. They had a interesting thing uh, it was a Robot-- that is normally used--I like to describe it to the listeners because what happened to the Weaver family, in all honesty can happen to you. You can be driving to work, you can be pulled over, the cop might be uh, uh, got up on the wrong side of the bed--you can end up in a barricade situation where your life was threaten. It happened to Rodney King, they charged him with assault on, police officers--we know.... so it,s good to know about this. They had a robot there, it looked like a little tank, it weighed 750 lbs. uh, kind of a R2-D2 type of thing--it had a uh, claw on it. Now they rolled the robot up to the back door, and then it has a loud-speaker--and they told Randy to open the door and pick up the telephone. Well the claw that the robot has uh, is controlled of course by the camera and the operator--there is a umbilical cord that runs down the hill. Uh, it had a black case all rapped in wire. Now that looked intimidating enough--I'm sure Randy thought it was probably a case of explosives, and when he opened the door, if he would, and grabbed the little uh, case off the claw, and unraveled the wire; that they just probably detonate the explosive. But was even more intimidating, if the person that happen to--was not a demolitionist, and weary of wires and boxes--they had a shotgun that was mounted right there by the little claw, and so there telling you on the loud-speaker "open the door and pick-up the telephone." And there is this camera eye that's watching you, and there is this red light blinking on and off. And then here is this shotgun that is located as part of the robot right beside the box. C.H.: Oh, my. J.B.G.: No one in their right mind is going to do this. The point I like to make to the listeners is... C.H.: "Not, not after they shot my dogs and my kid." J.B.G.: And uh, that's right, and your son & wife. C.H.: Yea, and uh, and you know uh, we happen to live in in heavy woods here in White Springs Florida. And I must tell you uh, there are many, many people that live in this area that have dogs, and they have a cabin back in the woods. And if somebody shoots their dogs there going to shoot back. J.B.G.: Well, under the Constitution, I mean my gosh, there's the third Amendment, there's the forth Amendment, there's the ninth Amendment--all of these uh, tend to protect the sanctity of a persons home. You have to have a legally authorized signed warrants, before uh, uh, the law enforcement officers, let alone militarized people, come on your to land. And non of that--all of that seems to of been abused. So but the good news was, the F.B.I. uh, uh--once I was in the house talking with Randy uh, you know he was saying "who are these crazies?, they think I'm going to try to kill them, and they're trying to kill me?, they want to blow up my family with this bomb, and yet they got a shotgun if I were to reach out there and get it." Uh, and so the F.B.I. told me--said "Bo, please tell Randy the shotgun isn't loaded." C.H.: Yea, yea, J.B.G.: I was the one who personally moved the robot. C.H.: Yea, yea, sure--the shotgun--yea, yea, sure. J.B.G.: I'm from the Government, I'm here to help you... C.H.: Yea, umhuh.. J.B.G.: And your check is in the mail, and a few other things.. C.H.: Yea. J.B.G.: So, but but for endeavorance, I don't know weather it could of been un-loaded when I wasn't there--I'm not sure the F.B.I. would of gotten that close to the cabin. But I did go out and--the day that I was able to take Randy and his family out of the home--I did open the shotgun breach--because they [F.B.I.] told me "Bo, would you get this robot out, it can go forward but it can't back-up very well, because of its umbilical cord". And I said "umhuh." So I went up and looked in the breech, [chamber] and the shotgun was indeed unloaded. But they odd to take the shotgun off, you know, if there not going to use it, because they certainly aren't gaining any meaningful communication with anyone who knows anything about weapons or explosives. C.H.: Well, if uh, if anybody uh, a robot uh, come at me with a blinking light and claw, and and what looked like a shotgun, and and what have you--I'm sorry uh. J.B.G.: That's not a good rapport maker is it? C.H.: Let me put it this way, it certainly isn't the welcome wagon or Avon calling. J.B.G.: And when you combine that with all of these troops dressed in camouflage--they had all the army surplus stuff--they had burlap bags all over them, so look like the ground uh, all of their kevlar helmets--then they were saying "come out we wont hurt you". C.H.: Umhuh, yea sure. J.B.G.: Some how what ever, it's not credible. The point is tho, that the Weavers uh, did come out without any further loss of life--they were prepared I think to uh, to die in that cabin-- they thought that the Government was going to kill them, and it was just a literally it would--I got to give credit where credit is due. It was a miracle of God that those doors opened, and that family was willing to join hands, because Jack McLamb uh, and I had no weapons uh, we had no bullet-proof-vests uh, we we were up there without even a pencil. And I believe that they realized we honesty cared about them. And when people say--now they linking me as a "White Supremacist", listen if uh, Bo Jackson, if uh, Reggie Jackson uh, if any of them get in trouble, anyone in America--if your a citizen and your in trouble uh, I'm going to try to help you if I can. And in this case we were able act as buffer, between the Government and this family, and we were able to uh, to give the dialogue that the Government couldn't. And as it resulted, we now got uh,--Randy is in Boise Idaho. It may be of use to know little bit about the lawyer... C.H.: Alright, lets, lets do this, let me do a quick break and lets talk about the lawyer, and lets also before we go into the break, lets uh, lets say this: I think the Government both state, and local, and Federal has to realize that their pay- checks come from [US] the tax payer. We are not their enemy, we are not somebody who is to comply, we are their employers, and you don't shoot the boss and keep your job--not for long. We'll be right back. They were going to dump the fuel on the cabin C.H.: Ladies and Gentlemen, there is so much interest uh, in this broadcast with Colonel Gritz, that were going to keep Colonel James Bo Gritz next hour, he's agreed to stay with us. Uh, before we, before we run out of time this hour--Colonel Gritz, two, two things that I want you to address. Uh, number one is, the fuel tank, and number two is uh, again the presses twisted rumor uh, of supposedly you giving a [Nazi Salute] when you went down the hill. ha, ha, ha. J.B.G.: First of all on the fuel tank, this was most interesting--a man named Jack, owns a higher terrain uh, a mountain right beside Randy; you can look down on Randy's home. He had some media up there with him and they had a video camera. On second day of the seize uh, a helicopter came up, and it had a uh, a fuel bladder uh, that they--the helicopter came up and was hovering over the cabin. The concern was, that they [Government] were going to dump the fuel on the cabin, and then simply uh, incinerate it. Uh, Jack who owns the land up there, said he started jumping up and down, and waving arms. The pilot noticed them, they had a video camera, and so the pilot pointed that out to authorities, and the, the mission was aborted. Now, they might say they were delivering the fuel up to top of the hill to be used by generators or whatever by the Federal Forces. But if that was so, why did the aircraft abort and go on back and land down in the valley? Kind of interesting. C.H.: After he realized he was on tape. J.B.G.: After he realized that they were Rodney King(ing) him. C.H.: Umhuh. I know what a Nazi Salute is like J.B.G.: As far as the [Nazi Salute], absolute hog wash, it goes right along with the, with my opinion of the establishment media. Uh, the guy that I mentioned earlier in the talk, about the letter that was signed from some of the Skin-Heads uh, I passed it through the door, and honesty helped soften Randy's heart, and it was a great benefit. When I came down the hill, Randy said "Bo when you go down to brief the people.", he said, "would you please just give a salute to my friends, and tell them thank you for all that did, and standing by the vidual.", and he says "also, make sure you give a special thanks to those guys who sent the letter up here." Well when I went down the hill uh, the Skin-Heads--the three of them that had signed the letter, were standing in the back of the crowd. And as I walking down--there was two times that I recognized them, I simply raised my hand to get their attention, I said " hey guys"--I was just pointing tword them, I said "hey guys, you did a really great job, thank you for letter, your letter helped us to get Randy off that hill, and I want thank you, and he asked me to give you special salute." Now, somebody in the media probably heard me say "Salute", I know what a Nazi Salute is like; you put your hand out, your fingers are ridged, your elbow is locked-- that's garbage. And it goes right along with most of the establishment media. C.H.: Well I think what were looking here is a search for the truth, and I don't think the truth is getting properly to the American people. I think it gets twisted....uh, I think it gets totally bent out of shape, and I think it's wrong. Uh, this is uh, or was once the greatest country in the world--we have the greatest set of operating instructions called the "U.S. Constitution". And for some reason, it has to be tampered with by the Government--by the way Bo, uh, were going to uh, as we agreed you'll stay and take some calls next hour. Uh, but on the other side of the coin uh, I got to tell you that the Harpers magazine, this months Harpers magazine uh, yesterdays New York Times, mondays Wall Street Journal, last weeks Wall Street Journal, there're all coming out with stories now about how the United States is being dismantled--especially Harpers, and we're not so crazy anymore. J.B.G.: Ha, Ha.... true. C.H.: Hang on Bo, we'll be right back. My guest is Colonel James Bo Gritz, he'll take your calls next hour. Ladies & gentlemen were're so delightful that no more blood was shed. Thank you, thanks for your support folks, we'll be back on many of these same stations. All the best, may God bless. * * * Those readers wishing to have an audio tape of the entire interview (which contains a wealth of information and detail not available from any other source) can get it by writing to: For the People, 3 River Street, White Springs, Florida 32096. Ask for the Gritz Interview, item Number 4001-090292. The cost is $14 including shipping and handling. # Here is a Article off the UPI news wire that didn't get much attention across the country. (in other words..it didn't get printed in the papers, instead it ended up on the editing floor) NAPLES, Idaho (UPI)--The deadly 11-day seige of a fortified mountaintop cabin has ended with the surrender of a fundamentalist white separatist, and accusations of a government cover-up and murder. Randy Weaver, 44, walked out of his mountain redoubt Monday with his three young daughters, ending a standoff in the northern Idaho panhandle with more than 200 state and federal officers backed up by an array of amored personnel carriers, helicopters and National Guard logistical support. A deputy U.S. marshal and Weaver's wife, teenage son and the family dog were killed during the seige. James "Bo" Gritz, the most decorated Green Beret officer in Vietnam and an independent presidential candidate who talked with Weaver Sunday and Monday, deserves much of the credit for persuading Weaver to surrender, said FBI Agent Ron Van Vranken. Weaver was a Green Beret in 1971-72, but did not serve in Vietnam, officials said. He had asked to speak with Gritz, apparently because of their Special Forces connection. Gritz served "citizen's arrest warrants" on Gov. Cecil Andrus, FBI Director William Sessions, U.S. Marshals Service Director Henry Hudson and FBI Agent Gene Glenn during the seige, accusing them of the "murder of Sam Weaver and U.S Marshal William Degan" in addition to "felonious abuse, cover-up and abuse of office." Gritz called for a grand jury investigation into the government's actions. He accused the federal authorities of instigating the seige by trying to carry out a military-style "hit" on the cabin and of planning to torch the cabin and everyone in it by dropping gas on the building and setting it afire with a satchel charge a plan Gritz said was foiled only when a news photographer began taking pictures of the helicopter hovering over the area with a 20- gallon drum filled with gas. Gritz also said there is evidence the U.S. marshal killed Aug. 21 in a firefight was shot by his fellow officers, not by Kevin Harris, 24, who lived with the Weavers and who faces a first-degree murder charge in the marshal's death. Tom Connor, a Marshals Service spokesman in Washington, said the service had no response to Gritz's accusations. The standoff began Aug. 21 when a Marshals Service assault team in camouflage surrounded the remote cabin. According to witnesses, Harris, Weaver and Weaver's son, Sam, 13, were walking outside the cabin when their dog started barking. One of the officers allegedly emerged and ordered them to freeze, and when one of the officers shot the dog, the teenager fired his rifle at the officer. In the ensuing gunbattle, Sam Weaver and Degan, of Boston, were killed. The next night, Weaver was shot in the arm, reportedly as he went to the woodshed to say a last goodbye to his dead son. Weaver's wife, Vicki, 43, was reportedly shot between the eyes as she stood with her baby daughter in the doorway of the cabin. Harris was wounded in the ribs and lung, allegedly by the same bullet. According to Gritz, nobody in the cabin fired at the officers after the initial gunfight on Aug. 21 . Harris surrendered Sunday to get treatment for his wounds. Vicky Weaver's body was brought out Sunday by Gritz and a family friend and turned over to marshals. Weaver, a devotee of the Christian Identity Movement, a combination of Old Testament religious beliefs, white separatism and right-wing politics, was arrested in January 1991 on charges of making a sawed-off shotgun and attempting to sell two similar guns to an informant. Weaver was released the following month, and he and his family holed up at the fortified cabin, which has no phone or electricity, but which was well stocked with food and weapons. Weaver has said the gun charges were fabricated after he refused to infiltrate the aryan Nations white separatist group and spy for the government. He vowed the standoff would end only with the death of him and his family or an admission by the government that it had framed him. Weaver's daughters, Alishba, eight months, Rachel, 11, and Sarah, were placed with Vicki Weaver's relatives. Harris was hospitalized in Spokane, Wash., and Weaver was in federal custody in Boise, Idaho. Neighbors, white separatists and religious fundamentalists had gathered outside the barricades at Weaver's home for several days. "I think he's a hero," said Carl Franklin, a leader of the Aryan Nation headquartered in Hayden Lake, Idaho, which wants to create a whites-only nation in the Pacific Northwest. "He stood up for his beliefs. He lost everything he ever worked for and he lost his wife and his son." "I think almost 100 percent Of the people around here identify with him, even the people who don't believe as we do," said Franklin. Local authorities were worried about their area's image. "I just hope the rest of the country doesn't get the wrong idea that north Idaho is an Aryan or separatist stronghold," said Boundary County Sheriff.