Part 2 of Deposition of James J. Humes
BY
MR. GUNN:
Q.
For the record, the exhibit number is No. 24.
A.
Well, this is ridiculous. I was at home at this time. He never talked to me,
period. Absolutely never did talk to me. I don't need to read any further, to
tell you the truth. I mean, I don't know what he's talking about. I was at home
helping my wife prepare for a social event that night, and our first knowledge
of the death of the President was when our children came home from school on the
school bus, came in running, yelling, all screaming, of course, "The
President was shot." And I couldn't even remember where the President was,
to tell you the truth, at that time. But I never talked to this person.
Q.
Could you complete through page 26, line 16, please?
A.
I get confused. It stops and goes over to another
...
Q.
24, 25, 26.
A.
It doesn't follow, sir. It doesn't follow.
Q.
23.
A.
I see.
Q.
24.
A.
Well, this doesn't follow this. It makes no sense. It's a nonsense. I don't mean
it frivolously.
Q.
At this point it says—there is an objection, calls for speculation, then
there's some colloquy, and it's back to—
A.
What? All I see is the word "speculation"—oh, somebody objects—
Q.
"Objection, calls for speculation."
A.
Oh, okay.
Q.
The passage between the two pages.
A.
Okay. I didn't understand that.
This
is fantasy. Pure fantasy. I don't know where this guy was or where he's coming
from. He was concerned about the autopsy, he called me and talked to me about
it? He never talked to me. I mean, I'll read it, but I don't know what good it's
going to do you.
Never
happened. That's all I can tell you. If I did, I mean, I developed amnesia of
some kind or other. But a long conversation like this at 4 o'clock in the
afternoon, absolutely, categorically did not occur.
Q.
Just so the record is clear here, you are saying that—would it be fair to say
that you're saying that Dr. Livingston never called you on the 22nd—
A.
To my recollection, he never called me. The only person, outside of the people
right there on the scene, I spoke to was Bruce Smith. Bruce Smith, a very dear
friend, close friend of mine, was the Deputy Director-Navy at the AFIP at that
time. He called and offered the services of the AFIP, anybody I needed, which
was very logical. I had been stationed at the AFIP. You know, it was home to me.
It was a very cordial conversation. "Bruce," I said, "Thanks a
lot. Let me see what the problem is, and if I need any help, I'll call you
back." When I saw what the problem was, I needed a ballistics person. And I
called Bruce back. I said, "Who do you have that's in ballistics?" He
said, well, Colonel Finck just got back from Panama, where held been
unscrambling some who-shot-whom between the Americans and the Panamanians, one
of the typical—which was familiar to me because I served for a couple years in
Panama during a revolution. So I was very familiar with that. I said,
"Well, that sounds great." I welcomed the assistance of Dr. Finck.
That is absolutely the only person that I spoke to outside of that building that
day. Now, whether he talked to somebody else, I can't—it could be. He could
have talked to J or he could have talked to any number of people in our
department. We had a big department, you know, but I did not speak with him.
Q.
When on November 22nd is the first time that you came into contact with
officials from either the FBI or the Secret Service?
A.
Well, contact, I never really had any dialogue with any of them. Some of them
were present in the morgue when the President's body was brought there. I was
not introduced to any of them. I didn't need to know any of them. I had to
occasionally tell them to keep their conversation down. There was a lot of
conversation going on. But I never personally was—can I recall, being
specifically introduced to any of them, which I didn't need to be introduced to
them, because I knew who they were and they ...
Q.
Prior to the arrival of President Kennedy's body, did you see any Secret Service
or FBI officials?
A.
No. I had one interesting encounter in that regard. When I found out what the
problem was, I went downstairs and got into a scrub suit which I was going to
wear to conduct the autopsy. And it was a brand-new morgue. We had just moved
into it a couple of months before. And it had a loading dock outside, and that's
where they were going to bring the President's body. So I walked outside to see
what was going on. A lot of people—oh, I saw a guy with a speed graphic camera
in the building and didn't feel like running after him myself. So I went out to
this loading dock, and several people were milling around. And I said,
"Who's in charge here?" And some general said, "I am." Well,
it turns out he was in charge of the military district of Washington. That was
his role. And I said, "General, sorry to bother you, but there's some clown
in there running around with a speed graphic camera." Well, he dispatched
somebody to corral this guy.
That's
the only other person that I had any conversation with at all. He responded very
quickly when I asked who was in charge. He left no doubt in my mind. But he was
in charge of the loading dock. He was not in charge of anything else. I never
saw him again in my life.
Q.
When is the first time you had a conversation with anyone outside of people in
the autopsy room regarding the nature of the President's wounds?
A.
The next morning when I called Malcolm Perry.
Q.
Approximately—
A.
I'm pretty sure that's who I spoke to, I know it is.
Q.
Approximately what time did you speak to Dr. Perry?
A.
I think 8 or 9 o'clock on Saturday morning.
Q.
Were you aware of any telephone calls being made from the autopsy room during
the time of the autopsy?
A.
Well, you see, that's possible. Certainly not by me, but we had a large defect
in the side of—in the right side of the President's skull, and there was
dialogue back and forth between somebody -I didn't know whether the FBI or
Secret Service- that fragments of bone had been picked up on the street. And
there was conversation back and forth between—I guess they were Secret Service
people. I had no idea, to tell you the truth. And they were going to be sent to
us, which was fine because we needed to close the defect if we could. It didn't
turn out to be enough to totally close the defect. We did other things to
accomplish that. But your specific question, if these phone conversations were
going on, I was not directing them, I was not involved in them, and really it
wasn't my problem.
Q.
Was there a telephone in the autopsy room?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Do you recall whether anyone was stationed at the telephone during the course—
A.
No, no. If there was, I didn't have anything to do with it.
Q.
Did you make any attempts to call anyone in Dallas prior to the completion of
the autopsy?
A.
No.
Q.
Were you aware of any other kinds of communications, in addition to telephone
calls, between Bethesda Hospital and Dallas regarding wounds of the body?
A.
No.
Q.
In addition to the call that you had with Dr. Perry, did you speak with any
other person who had been in Dallas on the day of the assassination regarding
the nature of the President's wounds?
A.
Contemporaneously at that time?
Q.
Thank you. Let me try the question again. Prior to the time that you had
completed the autopsy protocol, did you speak with any other doctor—
A.
No.
Q.
—or law enforcement official about the nature of the wounds on President
Kennedy's body?
A.
I did not.
Q.
Dr. Perry is the only one, then, prior to the completion—
A.
Right.
Q.
—of the autopsy protocol?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Did you see any written materials prior to the time that you completed the
autopsy protocol that discussed or described events in Dallas?
A.
No.
Q.
In the autopsy protocol, there is reference to information that happened in
Dallas. Do you recall how you came to have that information?
A.
I'd have to know—
Q.
I'll show you the autopsy protocol.
A.
Yes. I can't recall.
Q.
Just start with the first two paragraphs of the autopsy protocol.
MR.
GUNN: Dr. Humes is now examining Exhibit 3.
[Pause.]
THE
WITNESS: Yes, this makes reference to the local newspapers, which is the source,
plus I may have had the television on sometime on Saturday. I'm not sure. I was
busy doing a lot of things. I can't tell you for sure. I had no personal
knowledge. I had to get it secondhand, whatever it was. It was not my job. It
was not my responsibility in the first place.
BY
MR. GUNN:
Q.
At the beginning of the second paragraph, it makes reference to the President
fell forward. Do you recall now where you obtained that information? Again, the
beginning of the first paragraph—the first sentence of the second paragraph on
page 2?
A.
I presume from this Washington Post article. I'd have to look at it and see. I
had no other source of information that I can recall.
Q.
So, for example, did an FBI or Secret Service agent tell you that-
A.
No, absolutely. I had no dialogue with them at all. Zero. Maybe it would have
been helpful. It may have been harmful. I have no idea. But I did not have
dialogue with those people.
Q.
Could you describe in a general way what the autopsy room looked like? You
mentioned a few minutes ago that it was new. Could you just describe the room?
A.
Well, it's about the size of the room in which we're seated, which looks to me
like it's 30 by 25 or something of that nature. We had a permanently fixed
autopsy table in the center of the room. We had a viewing stand, a two-place
viewing stand, along one wall. I think it had two steps. It would accommodate
maybe 20 or 30 people, because we used to have conferences in there. Routinely,
at the end of a week, we would retain the organs from the autopsies of the week.
In fact, not only did we review them there, but there was a closed-circuit
television. They went to Andrews Air Force Base, NIH, and it was a closed-
circuit instruction program. That platform, a two- step platform, was for
observers. And in an adjacent area, we had a refrigerated storage place with
either four or sixj -I forget the number—places for retention of bodies. And
we had a shower and restroom adjacent.
Q.
Was there any kind of gallery in the room other than the two steps that you—
A.
That's what I'm speaking of. It might have three steps. I couldn't—you know, I
don't recall how many steps it had. We used to get a fairly decent number of
people. Maybe it had three steps.
Q.
Was there any closed-circuit broadcasting
A.
No.
Q.
—during the night of the autopsy?
A.
No, absolutely not. I wish there was, retrospectively.
Q.
Had you ever performed an autopsy in that room before?
A.
Yes. But let me correct that to some extent. The residents did most of the
autopsies, and we rotated the supervision of that activity. It varies. That's
the way the residents learned their trade, you know. But, yes, we had—I don't
know how many autopsies we've had in that room. it would be easy to find out
from the record, of course.
Q.
Approximately how many people were in the autopsy room at the time President
Kennedy was—
A. Geez, that's a good question. That's one of my—I should have thrown them all
out. That was one of my biggest problems.
There
were, I guess—there was an Air Force aide, the Naval aide, an Army aide to the
President. They were the most shook-up people you ever saw in your life. And I
guess it was around people there off and on, maybe 20.
Q.
During the autopsy, was the room quiet and hushed or noisy and bustling? How
would you describe the scene?
A.
It varied. We were there for a long time. We were there from about 6:00 or 6:30
in the evening until 5 o'clock the next morning. It was very hushed around 5
o'clock in the morning. But in the early evening, it was—I mean, we had X-ray
technicians coming in and photographers and photographers' assistants there, the
kind of thing that you would expect under any circumstances, plus these other
people, the Secret Service and the FBI, who wouldn't normally be present. But I
had to concentrate on what I was doing. I mean, I really couldn't get too
worried about these other people, as long as they didn't get in my way, which
they didn't.
Q.
In the JAMA article, if they quoted you correctly, you said that the scene in
the autopsy room was somewhat like trying to do delicate neurosurgery in a
three-ring circus.
A.
At times it was. Not always, but at times when there was a lot of people around.
You had to stage stuff. I mean, you couldn't be taking X-rays of the whole body
and photographs simultaneously. You know, somebody had to decide who was going
to do what when, and I had to do that. George Burkley sure as hell didn't, you
know.
Q.
Did anyone make suggestions to you other than Drs. Boswell and Finck, regarding
any procedures—
A.
No.
Q.
—during the autopsy?
A.
No.
Q.
None whatsoever?
A.
None. I don't know who it would have been or who would have the ...
Q.
Was your commanding officer there?
A.
I had a separate commanding officer, and he was there, it seems to me, part of
the time. John Stover was his name. Everybody called him Smoky Stover. At that
time, we had a separate command called the Naval Medical School. The Naval
Hospital did not have any laboratories. The Naval Medical School had
laboratories, and we provided the laboratory service to the hospital. So the guy
that was really my commanding officer by rules and regulations was John Stover.
But he had—we had a very cordial, pleasant relationship, but he never
commanded me to do anything in my life, period. He was off in a different area.
We conducted training courses for technologists and technicians and occupational
thera—all kind of training courses, and that was his main role, to run the
training aspects of the, quote-unquote, medical school. At one time, when my
uncle was a Navy doctor, every new doctor coming into the Navy first was
assigned to this Naval Medical School for, I think, six or nine months, and they
taught some tropical medicine and they taught shipboard sanitation—you know,
the kind of things that you'd need to know in the Navy. But if Smoky was there-
and I think he was for part of the time—we had no dialogue at all. He would
never have presumed to tell me anything, I don't believe. He was a general
practitioner, is what he was. He was a field—he spent a lot of time in the
Marine Corps. He was a field medical officer, and a very good one, very much
respected.
Q.
Who was Captain Stover's commanding officer?
A.
Admiral Galloway.
Q.
Was he present at the autopsy?
A.
I don't think so. I don't think Cal came down there at all. I mean, I can't
swear that he was or wasn't there. But if he was, he played no role in it
whatever.
Q.
Was the Surgeon General of the Navy present—
A.
No.
Q.
—during the autopsy? That's Rear Admiral Kenny?
A.
Kenny.
Q.
And he was not present at all in the autopsy room?
A.
I can't recall that he was. You know, he might have, again, looked in, stuck his head in the door or something. But I don't recall him being in the room. If he
was, it was very fleetingly.
Q.
Previously, you made reference to the President's Air Force aide. Was that
reference to General McHugh?
A.
I didn't know who they were, to tell you the truth. Still don't know who they
were. And they didn't stay long. They came about the time the body was
delivered, and they didn't—I mean, I didn't concentrate on what these people
were doing. It really didn't interest me. I was empathetic with-their concern,
but as far as otherwise, I didn't have anything to do with them, or they with
me.
Q.
Previously, you made reference to the commanding general for the military
district of Washington.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was that General Wehle?
A.
You got me. You know, he told me, he said he was in charge, and I heard later
that that was his role. I said to somebody else, "Who's that guy?" And
that's what they said; he's the CO of the military district of Washington. I
never saw him before or since, didn't know who he was then.
Q.
Was he present at all during the autopsy?
A.
No, he was not. or if he was, I didn't know he was there. Let's put it that way.
I don't think he was at all.
Q.
Would you have recognized Joint Chiefs of Staff as of 1963?
A.
No.
Q.
For example, Curtis LeMay, would you have recognized him?
A.
Oh, I'd recognize him if he was there, but he was not.
Q.
Did you ever hear any speculation about whether any members of the Joint Chiefs
of Staff were present at the autopsy?
A.
No, never heard, but if they were, it was unknown to me totally. I doubt very
seriously that they were.
You
asked me, would I recognize them? Sure, you know, from newspapers and
television, one thing or another. I probably knew them all by sight. But they
weren't there.
MR.
GUNN: Let's take a short break, a couple minutes to get a drink of water.
[Recess.]