From Ralph Schuster

Mr. Liebeler.

Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Markham.

I do.

Mr. Liebeler.

My name is Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony for the Commission pursuant to authority granted it by the President in Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the Commission because you have already testified before the Commission in Washington; is that right?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; but you know, I don't know nothing about the Kennedys--President Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler.

I understand you were there when Oswald shot Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; that's right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Since you are familiar with the Commission's procedure, I'll just go right into your testimony. I wanted to ask you some questions about some of the things you told the Commission when you appeared before it on March 26, 1964, when Mr. Ball took your testimony before the Commission.

Mrs. Markham.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember at that time that Mr. Ball asked you the question, "Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who said he was from New York?" And that you answered, "No, sir." Mr. Ball then asked you, "Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?" Your answer was, "No, sir." Mr. Ball asked, "Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of Lee Oswald?" And you answered, "No, sir." And then Mr. Ball asked you, "You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?" And then you answered, No, sir."

Mrs. Markham.

Right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember giving that testimony at that time?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you ever talked to Mark Lane?

Mrs. Markham.

No; I haven't--I haven't never seen the man in my life.

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you ever talk to Mark Lane on the telephone?

Mrs. Markham.

No.

Mr. Liebeler.

And you remember that Congressman Ford specifically, and Mr. Dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to Mark Lane on the telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to Mark Lane?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir; I have never seen the man. If he was to come in here I wouldn't know who he was.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you also told the Commission when you were in Washington that you had never talked to him over the telephone?

Mrs. Markham.

Right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you talked to Mark Lane over the telephone since you were in Washington, before today?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

You have never talked to Mark Lane over the telephone?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir; no, sir. Now, the old lady, and they told me were reporters, came to my house.

Mr. Liebeler.

Right, but you have no recollection of ever talking yourself?

Mrs. Markham.

I never even talked to her even.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, now, I'll tell you very frankly, that we have a tape recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation between you and Mark Lane on the telephone and I have a transcript which we will mark as Markham Exhibit No. 1----

Mrs. Markham.

Let me tell you now----

Mr. Liebeler.

I ask you to read the transcript and I will make arrangements----I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have the Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so you can tell us whether or not that is your voice?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; sure.

Mr. Liebeler.

Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice.

Mrs. Markham.

I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let me tell you this--there was someone one day-- this was all to me--I was scared, and I was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this brings me back--the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore mentions]. One day on my job there was someone that called, but he told me he was from the city.

Mr. Liebeler.

From here in Dallas?

Mrs. Markham.

That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told me he was---now, I can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was Captain Fritz--over this telephone--Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are familiar with him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the police department of the city of Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a number, a telephone number---do you remember the telephone number at your office where you worked; were you working?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; I was working down here on Main Street.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you know what the telephone down there is?

Mrs. Markham.

No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this office phone. It's a Riverside 8 number.

Mr. Liebeler.

Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a number as that that you know of?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called this number here, Matthew 7-6797.

Mrs. Markham.

My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I worked at was Riverside 8.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret Service bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to know that.

Mrs. Markham.

Sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he was from the Dallas Police Department and he said it was concerning the Oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, let me call the Secret Service.

Mrs. Markham.

And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You see, I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know.

Mr. Liebeler.

Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the Secret Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape.

Mrs. Markham.

All right.

Mr. Liebeler.

This is Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we will continue with your deposition, Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape recorder and I will ask you, Mrs. Markham, to listen, to this conversation and tell us whether or not this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the telephone some time ago?

The Court Reporter.

How much of this tape recording do you want on the record here?

Mr. Liebeler.

I don't want any of this on the record now; however, I will give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone conversation to review and follow along, if you will. This memorandum consists of 29 pages appearing on the letterhead of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and I want you to see if that is not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape.

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; I'll watch this.

"Mr. LANE. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--I have your affidavit which you gave the police on that date.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would be good enough to talk to me?"

Mr. Liebeler.

You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape recorder, Mrs. Markham.
John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to indicate by that?

Mrs. Markham.

I never talked to that man.

Mr. Liebeler.

Is that not your voice on the tape?

Mrs. Markham.

I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked to no woman or no man like that.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you following it along, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; I am right here.

Mr. Liebeler.

And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and exact transcript of the recording?

Mrs. Markham.

That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it says, "Mark Lane." No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I got--nothing.

Mr. Liebeler.

Let's continue with the recording and see if you recognize your voice here on the tape.

"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell you that. I don't have the time to.
"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I read where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and had bushy hair.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I did not say that.
"Mr. LANE. You did not say that?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short.
"Mr. LANE. He was short?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy.
"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy.
"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather bushy kind of hair?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; that's my voice.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy.
"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone.
"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did they bring you down to look at him?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup.
"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him.
"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone point him out to you at that time as the man?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup?
"Mr. LANE. Yes.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not.
"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing.
"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot Officer Tippit?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket.
"Mr. LANE. Yes.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers.
"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not.
"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was closed--pretty close too.
"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned on it and placed his arms up against the car.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window.
"Mr. LANE. In the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all.
"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.
"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it.
"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever it was, walked over to the car?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.
"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window.
"Mr. LANE. He did what?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window.
"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.
"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, because, you see, he leaned over in the window.
"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder.
"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy side and had slightly bushy hair?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.
"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.
"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like that?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your affidavit, right?
" Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes."

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, you are shaking your head at this point. Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down.

The Reporter.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do you mean by that?

Mrs. Markham.

This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department of the city hall.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with somebody?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little more information from me. That was my boss that told me the one that said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus.

Mr. Liebeler.

And you received this call at the place where you work?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember specifically that when the telephone calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the police department?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because you see--- I had got a call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this man. Now, he told me that.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, did he tell you he was from the police department?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is asking you what the police did.

Mrs. Markham.

I know it.

Mr. Liebeler.

And he said they--the police took you and took your affidavit.

Mrs. Markham.

That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the city hall.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked to?

Mrs. Markham.

No; it is not.

Mr. Liebeler.

This is not the same voice?

Mrs. Markham.

No.

Mr. Liebeler.

How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on this tape recording is your voice?

Mrs. Markham.

I never heard that.

Mr. Liebeler.

You never heard the man's voice before?

Mrs. Markham.

And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the first time.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's voice on the tape now is your voice?

Mrs. Markham.

It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city police.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he said for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this tape that you-saw the police car stop and that this man walked over to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the officer roll the window down.

Mrs. Markham.

Man, I have never heard such a thing as this.

Mr. Liebeler.

At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?"
You couldn't have thought was from the police department if he was asking you what you were telling the police before---do you agree with me?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my work.

Mr. Liebeler.

So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that he was from the police department; is that right?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this lady never talked to me.

Mr. Liebeler.

Which lady is that?

Mrs. Markham.

On this tape.

Mr. Liebeler.

Which lady on the tape?

Mrs. Markham.

It was a woman talking.

Mr. Liebeler.

The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

I thought that was your voice?

Mrs. Markham.

Not at the first there.

Mr. Liebeler.

Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you to the telephone and a man answered the telephone.

Mrs. Markham.

No; my boss called me to the telephone.

Mr. Liebeler.

So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the telephone and he told you that he was from the police department?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

And then you engaged in this telephone conversation?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; he certainly did.

Mr. Liebeler.

So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

And you haven't talked to him over the telephone?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not.

Mr. Liebeler.

You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he was from the police department when he called?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir ; he certainly did. I know he did.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair?

Mrs. Markham.

No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.]

Mr. Liebeler.

You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that you want me to look at?

Mrs. Markham.

Please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show you--I don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my daughter wouldn't let me have it because I was very upset at the time and I don't know what it even means.

Mr. Liebeler.

Let the record show that the witness has handed me a piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the Statler-Hilton Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, 1964, and addressed to Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in Dallas, and the letter has a return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas 21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and it is addressed to Mrs. Markham and it says, "At your convenience, would you kindly call me Saturday or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I would like the opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be mutually profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr."
We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials on it and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't have any trouble identifying it in the future.

Mrs. Markham.

Just my initials?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes; just your initials.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr?

Mrs. Markham.

Now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It gives a post office box is all I saw.

Mr. Liebeler.

You never looked the telephone number up in the book or anything like that?

Mrs. Markham.

No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs---you never know who it is.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--RI 9-3195; did you notice that?

Mrs. Markham.

Well, I called that number off of that.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember whose number that is?

Mrs. Markham.

No; I believe it was either the police department--I don't know, but I called.

Mr. Liebeler.

You also have a telegram you want me to look at?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; I do.

Mr. Liebeler.

You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right?

Mrs. Markham.

No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what you think about that.

Mr. Liebeler.

The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21, apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows:
"Dear Mrs. Markham:
"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised report on the findings of the Warren Commission.
"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses who have given testimony here in Washington. We would like to request your cooperation in appearing on our program. In our opinion, your presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and misgivings following the death of Officer Tippit and, of course, the other Dallas tragedies. I would be most anxious to have your reaction and will contact you personally concerning our request.
"I look forward to talking with you.
"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service: U.S. Information Agency, Washington 25, D.C., phone Worth 2-0319."
When did you receive this?

Mrs. Markham.

Well----

Mr. Howlett.

Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this--she called me on the telephone about that. The U.S. Information Agency is a legitimate Government organization and they are planning to do this. They have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses and we checked with our office in Washington and they came back and told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the Secret Service, was engaged with the Commission and we wouldn't be able to help, but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation.

Mr. Liebeler.

So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that right, as he indicated?

Mrs. Markham.

Now, this man--Buck Pennington?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes.

Mrs. Markham.

He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever you think--he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you think it would be all right?

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. Markham.

Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong. I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to.

Mr. Liebeler.

I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission's staff in Washington and ask him what he thinks you should do.

Mrs. Markham.

Would you write that address down?

Mr. Liebeler.

Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward.

Mr. Howlett.

That's Mr. Rankin's address in Washington?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes.

Mrs. Markham.

I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and do that or not.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will handle that aspect of it.
Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to about page 6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Is that correct?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do anything like that?

Mr. Liebeler.

Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; may I use a pencil?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes.

Mrs. Markham.

I just wrote Markham down there.

Mr. Liebeler.

All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. I don't have any other questions at this time.

Mrs. Markham.

Well, that just worries me.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, we will have to do further investigation into this.

Mrs. Markham.

Because he told me he was from the police department. It never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I was going to get fired if I didn't get back.

Mr. Liebeler.

Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. Markham.

Well, will I get in any trouble over this?

Mr. Liebeler.

I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that [referring to the telegram].

Mrs. Markham.

That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. Liebeler.

Pardon?

Mrs. Markham.

That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, I would think that's right.

Mrs. Markham.

Well, he's not no better than Oswald--that's right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much.