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 1 SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, JANUARY 6, 1997
 2    8:30 A.M.
 3 DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ    HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE
 4 APPEARANCES:
 5      (PER COVER PAGE.)
 6      (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)
 7
 8     (The following proceedings were
 9     held in open court outside the
10     presence of the jury.)
11THE COURT:  Good morning.
12MR. PETROCELLI:  Good morning.
13MR. GELBLUM:  Good morning.
14MR. KELLY:  Morning, Your Honor.
15THE COURT:  Okay.  Somebody wanted to do
16 something out of the presence of the jury.
17MR. LEONARD:  Yes, Your Honor, we have two
18 matters.
19      First of all, I'd like to bring -- I
20 don't have a written motion, but I will file one by
21 the close of business today.  We'd like to bring to
22 the Court's attention that the attacks on Robert
23 Groden that commenced in the courtroom were continued
24 by an agent of the plaintiff outside the courtroom by
25 way of a news conference that was broadcast on a local
26 television station, and also by an appearance or at
27 least a videotape on a national television program on
28 MSNBC; that person's name is David Lifton.  He
 
     2
 1 represented himself to be a photographic consultant
 2 for the plaintiffs.  He's in the courtroom today,
 3 sitting in the second row, back there, the gentleman
 4 with glasses on the right-hand side there.
 5      We'd ask that the plaintiffs be
 6 sanctioned, that Mr. Lifton be excluded from the
 7 courtroom, and additional sanction be levied against
 8 the plaintiffs; and that would be that we bring before
 9 the jury that the plaintiffs have violated the gag
10 order in particular by attempting to attack Mr. Groden
11 through this agent of theirs.  He made very derogatory
12 remarks about Mr. Groden.
13      We have taken -- we had a full-blown
14 hearing on this.  We have the tape-recordings we can
15 present to Your Honor.
16MR. GELBLUM:  Morning, Your Honor.
17      Mr. Groden is not an agent of the
18 plaintiffs, he's --
19MR. PETROCELLI:  Not Mr. Groden.
20MR. GELBLUM:  Mr. Lifton is not employed, is
21 not the Mr. Lifton, is not a photographic agent, not a
22 consultant to the plaintiff's, he's a member of the
23 public who has known Mr. Groden for over 20 years and
24 has provided us with information regarding
25 Mr. Groden's background, and that is it.  He's not our
26 agent, he's not under our control, never paid him a
27 dime.  We don't intend to pay him a dime he's somebody
28 just like, I'm sure defendants have a person, who
 
     3
 1 provides us with information.  He's not an agent, not
 2 under our control.
 3MR. LEONARD:  I would like to put point out
 4 that during the examination and cross-examination of
 5 Mr. Groden, I saw Mr. Gelblum and Mr. Petrocelli
 6 consulting with Mr. Lifton, that Mr. Lifton came into
 7 the building this morning with the plaintiffs party,
 8 he's sitting in the plaintiffs' seats, it was accepted
 9 on national television that he was a consultant, a
10 photographic consultant for the plaintiffs.
11      It seems to me that if this gag order is
12 to have any teeth in it or have any affect, that they
13 can't use a shill like Lifton to make their point to
14 the press, and in the press and national television
15 that's exactly what's going on, so I think that --
16 that Mr. Lifton should be removed from the courtroom
17 at a minimum.
18MR. GELBLUM:  He's not a shill, he's not under
19 our control.  I can't tell him what to say or not to
20 say.  I didn't tell him what to say or not to say.  I
21 didn't know what he was going to say or not say.  I
22 didn't know he was going to go on the television.
23THE COURT:  Has he conferred?
24MR. GELBLUM:  He has provided us information
25 about Mr. Groden's historical background, yes, Your
26 Honor.
27      He's not consulted with us.  He's not a
28 photographic consultant.
 
     4
 1THE COURT:  What's his name?
 2MR. LEONARD:  David Lifton.
 3THE COURT:  Okay, sir, you're excluded.  Step
 4 out.
 5MR. LEONARD:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 6MR. LEONARD:  The other matter is a -- we filed
 7 by way of a written motion, and I'm not sure
 8 whether -- whether it's ripe at this point because we
 9 have gotten no indication whatsoever in written form
10 or even orally that the plaintiffs intend to utilize
11 these newly emerged photographs.
12      I think if you -- if you had an
13 opportunity to read the motion, I think it speaks for
14 itself.  It's a total -- it's a 23 and a half hour
15 situation.  We obviously are going to -- if these
16 photographs come into this case at all, we are going
17 to vigorously fight their -- their admission, we are
18 going to attack their authenticity naturally, and we
19 would need -- we would need time to do discovery on
20 this.  We need to go back and do the deposition of
21 the -- of the photographer who purported to take the
22 photographs.
23      Interestingly enough, the middle-man or
24 the agent who's either attempting to or has already
25 sold the photographs to a tabloid is the same one who
26 sold the Scull photograph that we're dealing with
27 here.  We want to take his deposition.  We want to
28 take the deposition of whoever was involved in the
 
     5
 1 discovery of this photograph including Mr. Kelly and
 2 Mr. O'Connor, another attorney who was involved in
 3 this effort with Mr. Kelly.
 4      We think it's highly suspicious that the
 5 photograph has emerged at this time, particularly in
 6 view of the fact that there was -- there was an
 7 investigation done, there were attempts at the
 8 beginning of the criminal case to locate photographs
 9 of Mr. Simpson, particularly among photographers at
10 football games.
11      So we would vigorously object to any
12 mention of this photograph at this juncture -- at any
13 point in this trial.
14      I can tell you one thing, that if -- if
15 they attempt to get this in, we're going to ask for at
16 least a two-week recess in order to investigate and to
17 do the appropriate discovery we need to do to prove
18 that this photograph is either irrelevant or faked.
19 So that's one thing that we'd be looking for.
20      And I think in the interest of fairness
21 and in the interest of judicial efficiency and under
22 the laws of the State of California, particularly the
23 discovery statutes, this photograph has no business
24 being in this case at this point.  We haven't even
25 seen it yet, by the way.
26MR. PETROCELLI:  Your Honor, there's absolutely
27 no basis for this position at all.
28      Mr. Simpson took that stand, under oath,
 
     6
 1 and said he was not wearing the shoes in that
 2 photograph, he said the photograph was a fake.
 3      Mr. Baker told the jury the same thing.
 4      They put this would-be expert on the
 5 stand to say that this photo is a fake.  This is about
 6 as pure impeachment as you can find, Your Honor.
 7      You want to get on the stand and tell
 8 those kind of -- make those kind of representations,
 9 you have to suffer the risk that you may get caught
10 red-handed.  That is what has happened.
11      These photos emerged this weekend.  I
12 just got them on Saturday, Your Honor.  They were just
13 handed --
14MR. LEONARD:  You haven't --
15THE COURT:  Excuse me.  He didn't interrupt you
16 when you were talking, Mr. Leonard.
17MR. PETROCELLI:  I just got them this weekend.
18      There are photos, eight or nine of them,
19 contact sheets, and everything from the same game,
20 Your Honor, the September 26, 1993, game, taken by a
21 completely different photographer unrelated to -- to
22 Mr. Scull.
23      In addition, one of the photographs
24 appeared in a Buffalo Bills newsletter of sorts, that
25 was printed and circulated to the public.  Mr. Simpson
26 and his defense lawyers obviously had full access to
27 this.
28      This is classical impeachment material,
 
     7
 1 Your Honor, and they don't have any right to advance
 2 disclosure of it, even if we had obtained it in
 3 advance, which we did not.
 4      We fully intend to confront the witnesses
 5 with the photographs that directly destroy the
 6 representations they made to this jury, Your Honor.
 7THE COURT:  Well, I order you to make them
 8 available to the defense.
 9MR. PETROCELLI:  Give them copies, Steve.
10MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor.
11THE COURT:  Yes.
12MR. LEONARD:  We have had no opportunity to
13 look at these photographs to determine whether they're
14 authentic.  There's no chain of custody that's been
15 developed on these.  I think it's highly improper for
16 them to be put in at this point.
17      Your Honor, we've had no opportunity to
18 look at them.  It would seem after the first time --
19 is it -- are you going to permit them to confront this
20 witness with these photographs when they haven't been
21 able to establish any kind of a chain with them, where
22 they were taken, how they were taken, whether they're
23 authentic at all?  I think that's highly unfair to us
24 at this point, Your Honor, and I would object.
25MR. PETROCELLI:  First of all, we will right
26 now make copies of everything available to you.
27      Secondly, you have indicated a number of
28 times to the Court how you were going to tie things up
 
     8
 1 later on.
 2      We can authenticate these pictures
 3 through the defendant himself, no less, Your Honor,
 4 when we question him about the photographs and to
 5 allay any possible concern, I have produced a sworn
 6 affidavit of the photographer who has indicated that,
 7 if necessary, he will come to testify in this court
 8 and authenticate the photographs.
 9THE COURT:  Okay.
10MR. LEONARD:  File it.
11MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, we would like a
12 hearing.
13THE COURT:  File it.
14MR. LEONARD:  This is something, again, I
15 haven't seen, Your Honor.
16MR. PETROCELLI:  This is my only copy.
17
18     (Mr. Petrocelli hands document to
19     clerk.)
20
21MR. LEONARD:  It's a total sandbag.
22THE COURT:  That's usually what impeachment
23 amounts to, counsel.
24
25     (Court reviews document.)
26
27THE COURT:  When is this witness going to be
28 available?
 
     9
 1MR. PETROCELLI:  We can make him available on
 2 24-hour's notice.  We were planning to call him in our
 3 rebuttal case.  I'm told the defense is resting
 4 probably by the end of this week or early next week,
 5 and he will probably be our first witness.
 6THE COURT:  Okay.  Serve a copy on the defense.
 7MR. PETROCELLI:  Thank you.
 8MR. LEONARD:  We'd like an opportunity to
 9 depose this witness.
10THE COURT:  You can do whatever you can to
11 assist you in your case.  This is rebuttal evidence.
12THE COURT:  Okay.  Is there anything else?
13      What about the declarations that also
14 were filed with respect to Ferrara and Siglar.
15MR. PETROCELLI:  It seems like this fellow
16 can't serve many people, Your Honor, but the bottom
17 line is I don't have any objection to Ms. Ferrara
18 being read in by her criminal trial testimony.  We'll
19 read in our portions.
20THE COURT:  There's no objection, then I will
21 allow it.
22MR. PETROCELLI:  And --
23THE COURT:  It appears that the declaration
24 with regards to Siglar is sufficient on its face.
25MR. PETROCELLI:  As to the one regarding
26 Mr. Siglar, I haven't yet seen the designations.  Once
27 I see the designations, I'd be happy to confer about
28 our position on that.
 
    10
 1THE COURT:  Bring the jury in.  Who are we
 2 starting with?
 3MR. GELBLUM:  Mr. Groden.
 4THE COURT:  Okay.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  He still resumes the stand.
 6
 7     (Jurors resume their respective
 8     seats.)
 9
10THE COURT:  Morning, ladies and gentlemen.
11JUROR:  Morning, Your Honor.
12THE CLERK:  You are still under oath.
13      Would you please state your name again
14 for the record.
15THE WITNESS:  Robert -- Robert Groden.
16THE CLERK:  Thank you.
17THE COURT:  You may proceed.
18
19   CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. GELBLUM: (continued)
21Q.    Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
22      Morning, Mr. Groden.
23A.    Morning.
24Q.    Because it's been quite a while since
25 We've been here, I thought we'd start by summarizing
26 where we were, about the point you were making about
27 the photograph in question.
28      Try to write on the easel here.
 
    11
 1      The first problem that we discussed --
 2 the first issue we discussed on the cross-examination
 3 was the blue lining that you saw on the picture of
 4 Mr. Simpson wearing Bruno Magli shoes, between the
 5 image and the sprocket holes, correct?
 6A.    I believe that was the first one.
 7Q.    The blue line?
 8A.    Yeah.
 9Q.    I'm just going to write blue line up
10 here.
11MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I'm going to object
12 to going through the cross-examination again.  This
13 has been asked and answered.
14MR. GELBLUM:  Very quickly.
15THE COURT:  Overruled.
16      Go ahead.
17Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And you acknowledged,
18 at one point, that that could be a scratch, correct?
19A.    Yes, I believe so.
20Q.    Okay.
21      And we also looked at some of the other
22 photographs, and again we saw blue lines between the
23 image and the sprocket holes, but you said those were
24 different than the ones on this picture; is that
25 right?
26A.    That's correct.
27Q.    Okay.
28      The next -- next point we talked about
 
    12
 1 was the alignment of the -- of the photographs,
 2 correct, the alignment of the frames?
 3A.    Yes.
 4MR. GELBLUM:  Steve, could you put up 1832,
 5 please, on the monitor.
 6
 7     (Exhibit 1832 displayed.)
 8
 9Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And your point was that
10 No. 1 and No. 2, No. 1 being the picture of
11 Mr. Simpson with the Bruno Magli shoes, were not
12 aligned, right?
13A.    1 and 2 were not aligned.
14Q.    You're saying that those are the only
15 adjoining frames on the contact sheet that were not
16 aligned?
17A.    That's correct.
18Q.    We looked at some others and you
19 disagreed about -- with -- about them being
20 misaligned?
21A.    Yes, that's correct.
22Q.    Did you look at other contact sheets,
23 too, to see if there were any out of alignment?
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    You found none of those were out of
26 alignment either?
27A.    That's correct.
28Q.    On this point, I think you did agree with
 
    13
 1 me that there is some?
 2MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I'm going to object.
 3 He's now back on this point of asking specific
 4 questions.  This has all been asked and answered.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  This is going to take less than
 6 five minutes to bring it up to speed.  There are
 7 points to be made later that have to do with the
 8 totality of his evidence.  I have to get it in before
 9 the jury.  It's fair.
10THE COURT:  Ask it in the form of a question,
11 not in the form of an argument.
12MR. GELBLUM:  That's fine, Your Honor.
13Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Do you recall that we
14 discussed that there is some play in the back of a
15 camera that allows the film to move through?
16A.    You made that representation.
17Q.    And you agree with me that there is
18 normally some play?
19A.    I don't believe that I agreed with that.
20 I said that -- that it would vary from camera to
21 camera.
22Q.    Right.
23      And -- but you -- in any event, you said
24 that that play that varies from camera to camera would
25 not account for the misalignment, in your opinion?
26A.    Not by this amount, no.
27Q.    And then the next point we discussed was
28 the -- the issue of the length.
 
    14
 1      Your opinion is that the photograph of
 2 Mr. Simpson wearing the Bruno Magli shoes is longer
 3 than the other frames, correct?
 4A.    That's correct.
 5Q.    And I want to make sure, did you compare
 6 it only to the one next to it or did you compare it to
 7 every other frame on the contact sheet?
 8A.    Well, to be fair, since the first two are
 9 disconnected from all the others, the only one we can
10 rely on as being together are the first two, I would
11 think that to be fair in the argument we can only
12 compare the first two.
13Q.    Is that all you compared?
14A.    No, I compared the rest as well.
15Q.    And your testimony was that this frame of
16 Mr. Simpson is longer than all the other frames?
17A.    Yes.
18Q.    And we talked about that at your
19 deposition, and you had said that you had enlarged the
20 contact sheet eight times, to make it eight times
21 bigger, and at that measurement, at this size, you
22 measured it, the measurement was approximately a
23 quarter of a millimeter longer, right?
24A.    As I pointed out, that was a rough
25 approximation, it wasn't accurate.
26Q.    I think you said it was an arbitrary
27 figure?
28A.    Yes.  The way it was actually stated was
 
    15
 1 it wasn't a quarter of a millimeter, a quarter of a
 2 millimeter, give or take.
 3Q.    Anyway that was an arbitrary figure?
 4A.    Yes.
 5Q.    And you made that eight times enlargement
 6 on a photocopying machine, not a photographic
 7 enlarger, is that right?
 8A.    That's correct.
 9Q.    And you believe that the photocopy image
10 is an absolutely 100 percent accurate, precise
11 reproduction of the size of what it's coping?
12A.    My opinion is that a photocopying machine
13 does not give the option for -- for photographic
14 manipulation.  It's just a straight scan copy, rather
15 than a photographic copy.
16Q.    But do you believe that the copy does not
17 distort or stretch the image in any way whatsoever,
18 the photocopy?
19A.    It's my opinion that it probably doesn't.
20      I have no personal knowledge whether it
21 does or doesn't.  I'm not a photocopying machine
22 expert.
23Q.    So if the photocopy does distort or
24 stretch the image, the image would not necessarily be
25 valid?
26MR. LEONARD:  Objection, lack of foundation.
27THE COURT:  Sustained.
28
 
    16
 1     (Court reviews real time screen.)
 2
 3Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  You don't know whether
 4 it's an accurate reproduction?
 5MR. LEONARD:  Objection, lack of foundation,
 6 called for speculation.
 7THE COURT:  Overruled.  This man works on copy
 8 machines.
 9MR. LEONARD:  No, I don't think that's
10 represented.
11Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Is it true you don't
12 know whether the photocopy accurately and precisely
13 reproduces the size of the image?
14A.    I have no way of knowing whether any
15 particular machine might be different than another.
16Q.    Where did you have your copies made, the
17 eight times enlargements?
18A.    I have them made in Dallas at -- I
19 believe it was either Kinko's or something of that
20 nature.
21Q.    Okay.
22      The next point we discussed was the point
23 about the edge.
24MR. GELBLUM:  Steve, can you put up -- do you
25 have the slides?
26      I think it's 2282, exhibit slide No. 3.
27Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  All right.
28      And we discussed -- you said that there
 
    17
 1 was an extra edge down here at the bottom, is that
 2 right, that has some parallel lines in it?
 3A.    Yes, there is a horizontal and several
 4 vertical lines.
 5Q.    And your opinion was that there was no
 6 natural process in photography that could possibly
 7 account for that?
 8A.    That's correct.  There's no photographic
 9 reason I can find for that.
10Q.    You agreed though, that frame zero which
11 comes just before the frame we're looking at here
12 could, in theory, as the photographer's loading the
13 camera and clicking the film through, be underexposed
14 through the length of the camera and produce
15 underexposed images, correct?
16A.    In theory.
17Q.    Right.
18      And I asked you whether those parallel
19 lines can be an underexposed image of the lines in the
20 football field that we see in other frames, and you
21 said there's no way in the world?
22A.    No.
23MR. LEONARD:  Objection.  He's going back
24 through cross-examination.  He's going point by point.
25THE COURT:  I'm about to sustain that objection
26MR. GELBLUM:  I'm about done.
27Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  The last point that we
28 went through last time was something about the left
 
    18
 1 leg.
 2MR. GELBLUM:  You can take this off, Steve
 3      Steve, do you have the exhibit number for
 4 these enlargements.
 5MR. FOSTER:  Yes, 2287.
 6
 7    (Exhibit 2287 displayed.)
 8
 9Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Putting up 2287, this
10 was the enlargement of Mr. Simpson wearing the Bruno
11 Magli shoes.
12      You said that there is a retouching mark,
13 what you perceive to be a retouching mark on the left
14 leg right above a fold in the pants, right?
15A.    Near a fold in the pants, yes.
16Q.    Okay.
17      Now, another point that you mentioned
18 with Mr. Leonard was a problem with the right leg as
19 well.
20MR. GELBLUM:  Can everyone see this?
21      You said --
22      Do you have the slide for that one?
23      I apologize.  It's No. 7.  2282 and
24 No. 7.
25Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  You said that you
26 observed some kind of linear tonal change across the
27 leg; is that right?
28A.    That's correct, with retouching marks
 
    19
 1 attached to it.
 2Q.    Now, you remember at your deposition, we
 3 went through -- you gave me a list of the observations
 4 you had made at that time that you said led you to the
 5 conclusion that the photograph is probably a fake,
 6 remember that?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    And you didn't mention this, did you?
 9A.    I had interpreted that as being wind
10 effect, that's the way I had spoken about at the
11 deposition.
12Q.    You didn't mention a linear tonal change
13 across the right leg at all at your deposition, did
14 you?
15A.    Not with that -- not with that
16 phraseology, no.
17Q.    Well, you didn't.
18MR. GELBLUM:  Put up 2291, please.
19
20     (Exhibit 2291 displayed.)
21
22Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  This was the list of
23 your observations that you gave me at the deposition,
24 that you said were all the observations you made
25 regarding the photograph being a fake, right?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    I'll hand you a copy of it so you can see
28 it better.
 
    20
 1      There's nothing at all on there about a
 2 linear tonal change in the right leg, is there?
 3A.    It's not on this, but we did discuss it.
 4Q.    We didn't discuss linear tonal change in
 5 the right leg, did we, sir?
 6A.    Three -- we discussed three differences
 7 in the two lengths that appear to be different
 8 responses to wind; one being affected, the other one
 9 not.  That was the same issue I was talking about.
10Q.    There's nothing on the piece of paper you
11 gave me at your deposition that you said was the
12 complete list of your observations about anything
13 about wind difference; is there, sir?
14A.    No, there's nothing on that.
15Q.    Okay.
16      When did you come up with that one, sir?
17MR. LEONARD:  Objection.  Argumentative, Your
18 Honor.
19THE COURT:  Overruled.
20A.    We had discussed it at the deposition and
21 I had told you at that time it was a complete list.
22      Before we left we had more issues than
23 are on that list.  You know that.
24Q.    I know you did not discuss that.
25      Your lawyer can point it out in his
26 examination.
27MR. LEONARD:  I object to this argument in
28 front of the jury.
 
    21
 1THE COURT:  Sustained.
 2MR. GELBLUM:  You can take that down, Steve.
 3      Put up 1832 again, please.
 4Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Another point you made
 5 with Mr. Leonard on direct examination was about the
 6 tint of the photograph of Mr. Simpson wearing the
 7 Bruno Magli shoes.
 8      Do you recall that?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    You said that all the other frames have a
11 slightly blue or blue to green tint, and this frame
12 alone has a pinkish tint or magenta tint, right?
13A.    That's correct.
14Q.    Okay.
15MR. GELBLUM:  Is that the whole sheet, Steve?
16
17     (Elmo adjusted.)
18
19Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Did you know,
20 Mr. Groden, that of all the other frames on the
21 contact sheet, other than this one, there's a green
22 field evident, and in this one Mr. Simpson is walking
23 on a red and white end zone?
24A.    Of course, yes.
25Q.    Did you notice that?
26      Okay.
27      But you don't think that could account
28 for the different tint?
 
    22
 1A.    No.
 2Q.    There are different kinds of reflections
 3 that photographers deal with, right?
 4A.    Yes.
 5Q.    There something called spectral
 6 reflection.  You heard of spectral reflection?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    Spectral reflection is what happens when
 9 light hits a shiny surface and bounces off something
10 like a mirror, it comes right in and goes out, right,
11 out the same angle?
12A.    Doesn't necessarily have to be the same
13 angle.
14Q.    It's a pretty clean reflection?
15A.    Yes.
16Q.    And diffused reflection, on the other
17 hand, is when light hits on a non-shiny surface like a
18 football field, and light diffuses out in all
19 directions, correct?
20A.    Theoretically.
21Q.    Okay.
22      Now, I think -- as an example of this
23 difference in tint, other than this green and red you
24 pointed to --
25MR. GELBLUM:  You can take that down, Steve.
26 Mr. Simpson's shirt, again, I'm putting up 2287.
27MR. FOSTER:  Yeah.
28Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And we'll put it here,
 
    23
 1 if you don't mind, and I'll show it to you first, and
 2 then show it to the jury.  The light's not good here.
 3      You said that the pinkish tint was so
 4 pronounced you thought Mr. Simpson was wearing a pink
 5 shirt in this picture?
 6A.    I said I had to find out whether it was
 7 pink or not because it does appear so pink, especially
 8 in the shadow areas.
 9Q.    You said you thought he was wearing a
10 pink shirt rather than a white?
11A.    I said I had to find out -- it appears to
12 me that, possibly, he was wearing a pink shirt.
13Q.    In this picture?
14A.    Yes.
15Q.    I'll show this to the jury.
16      Your eyes tell you that that is a pink
17 shirt?
18A.    Can I see it again?
19
20     (Witness reviews photograph.)
21
22       A.    Yeah.  Look in the shadow areas, you can
23 definitely see that.  See. (Indicating.)
24Q.    I'm not talking about shadows.  I'm
25 talking about a pink shirt.
26      You said it was a pink shirt, right?
27MR. LEONARD:  Objection, argumentative.
28THE COURT:  Overruled.
 
    24
 1A.    The shirt itself in the photograph.
 2Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Mr. Groden, you said
 3 you thought it was a pink shirt, right?
 4MR. LEONARD:  Objection, that's asked and
 5 answered.
 6THE COURT:  Overruled.
 7A.    That's not what I said.
 8Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  All right.
 9      Turn to your testimony on December 18,
10 direct examination, page 190, trial testimony, lines
11 20 to 24, this is on your examination by Mr. Leonard.
12MR. LEONARD:  What page?
13MR. GELBLUM:  Page 190.
14MR. LEONARD:  Okay.
15Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  The two prints in
16 question show a reflective value.  Frame 1-1 shows a
17 magenta and pinkish tint to a point of where just
18 inspected this photograph, I thought it was a pink
19 shirt instead of a white shirt.
20A.    I stand corrected.  What I meant was --
21Q.    Thank you.
22A.    I had to find out whether it was.
23Q.    I didn't ask you what you meant.  I just
24 asked you what you said.
25      Are you saying that shirt in that picture
26 is a fake?
27A.    No, of course not.
28Q.    You know Mr. Simpson sat where you sat
 
    25
 1 and admitted it was his shirt, don't you?
 2 end oj01061a
 3 BEGIN SECTION OJ0106-2.TRF
 4A.    I have no way of knowing that.
 5Q.    You didn't know that?
 6A.    No.  I don't doubt that it's his shirt.
 7Q.    Now, another point you made with
 8 Mr. Leonard had to do with the right shoe.
 9MR. GELBLUM:  Can you put up the slides, Steve,
10 that show the reflection on the bottom of the shoe.
11Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  You said that the red
12 reflection on the sole of the right shoe should be
13 white, correct?
14A.    From my analysis of it, it appears that
15 it should be white, that's correct.
16Q.    That's based entirely on your perception
17 that his foot is over the white area, correct?
18A.    No.
19Q.    All right.
20A.    No, it's based on the angle of the bottom
21 of the shoe as well.
22Q.    It's your opinion, based on your
23 perception, that the shoe is over the white area on
24 the field, correct?
25A.    I didn't say that.  I just said -- I just
26 said it's not true.
27Q.    Look at your -- look at your trial
28 testimony.
 
    26
 1MR. GELBLUM:  Page 185, Mr. Leonard, lines 20
 2 to 23.  I can read the whole sentence if you want.
 3      Got it?  December 18, page 185.
 4MR. LEONARD:  Okay.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  Okay.
 6Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  (Reading:).
 7      The bottom of the shoe on the
 8       right foot appears to be reflecting
 9       light, indicating a sole pattern based
10       on the positioning of that shoe over the
11       line.  It's my opinion that should be
12       reflecting white instead of red.
13      Is that what you said?
14A.    The position of the shoe, yes.
15Q.    You weren't saying it's over the -- onto
16 the white?
17A.    No, I said the positioning of the -- of
18 the shoe over the line, the shoe is over the line.
19Q.    So you're saying the shoe is over the
20 line.  Okay.
21A.    It's above the line.
22Q.    Where is the tip of the shoe in your
23 perception, sir?
24A.    In this particular case it's very
25 difficult to tell because you don't have a side view.
26 However, the angle of the bottom of the shoe would
27 reflect off the white rather than the red.
28Q.    Well, Mr. Groden, the red reflection goes
 
    27
 1 all the way back down here, doesn't it?
 2      This is your slide, sir.
 3A.    Yeah.
 4Q.    The reflection goes --
 5A.    It could be lightened up to show it
 6 better.
 7Q.    There you go.
 8
 9    (Elmo readjusted.)
10
11Q.    The red reflection goes how far back?
12A.    The red reflection goes on the outside
13 extending beyond the edge of the shoe back to the
14 bottom back into the shadowy area.
15Q.    Almost to the heel?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    You're saying that that entire shoe is --
18 entire part of the shoe is over the line?
19A.    No, the -- no, the entire part we're
20 talking about the reflection of the edge here.
21Q.    You're mathematics tells you that shoe
22 and that position should be reflecting white?
23A.    It's my opinion it should be, yes.
24Q.    Now, the lens that was used by Mr. Scull
25 was a long lens, right?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    One of those long lenses that you see
28 photographers use at football games?
 
    28
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    500 millimeter lens.
 3      And that kind of lens when you use it
 4 compresses space, right?
 5A.    Yes, it's called foreshortening.
 6Q.    Right.
 7      The distance between objects seems much
 8 smaller than they actually are?
 9A.    Depending on the distance from the
10 camera, yes.
11Q.    Is it your testimony, sir, that if --
12 even if that foot is entirely over the red, it should
13 still be reflecting white?
14A.    Based on the angle, I believe it should
15 be reflecting white.
16Q.    Okay.
17      And what do you mean by based on the
18 angle?
19A.    Well, we're not talking about a ricochet
20 effect where we're going this way and bouncing off to
21 the far end.  We're talking about a reflective
22 situation that you see through a mirror, the mirror
23 bounces off at a specific angle, as with the bottom of
24 the shoe, if in fact there is any legitimate
25 reflection at all.
26Q.    Do you think there should be some
27 reflection?
28A.    On the bottom of a shoe of that color, I
 
    29
 1 would doubt it.  I certainly doubt that it would,
 2 though, the way it does in this photograph.
 3Q.    Okay.
 4      I just want to be clear what you're
 5 saying.
 6      Now, you agree, sir, the shadow of the
 7 shoe in that picture is entirely in the red, right?
 8A.    The shadow that -- which we see a shadow
 9 is, yes, but the shadow is much shorter than the
10 actual shoe.  And considering the lighting, I think
11 that if it were a direct single point of light, it
12 would extend farther and into the light.
13Q.    Whatever shadow there is is entirely on
14 the red, there's no shadow on the white?
15A.    Right.
16MR. GELBLUM:  Steve, would you put up the next
17 slide, the next one for him, but on the left shoe,
18 showing the red extending beyond the sole.
19MR. FOSTER:  Number 6.
20MR. GELBLUM:  This is 2282, number --
21MR. FOSTER:  6.
22MR. GELBLUM:  Thank you.
23Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And so you also have a
24 problem with the left shoe, right?
25A.    That's correct.
26Q.    Correct.
27      And your problem here is that --
28MR. GELBLUM:  That's not -- that's not the
 
    30
 1 right one.  Sorry.  Number 9.  Number 9.
 2Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  The problem here is you
 3 say that the red extends beyond both the right sole
 4 and the left heel?
 5A.    That's correct.
 6Q.    And that could just be a printing issue,
 7 couldn't it, sir?
 8A.    Can you restate that.
 9Q.    Yeah.
10      You're aware that colors can be changed
11 very easily in a printing process, right?
12A.    Yes.
13Q.    You can make this whole photo green if
14 you wanted to?
15A.    Sure.
16Q.    Okay.
17      And if there's too much red in the
18 printing, that could cause this kind of effect,
19 couldn't it?
20A.    No, I wouldn't think so, not based on the
21 rest of the photograph.
22Q.    And diffused reflection that we discussed
23 before could also cause this effect, right?
24A.    But it doesn't anywhere else on the
25 shoes.
26Q.    But it could cause it on the shoes --
27 well, the shoes are closest to the reflective surface?
28A.    If you got the reflective surface itself
 
    31
 1 which has no such effect --
 2Q.    Sir, try to answer my question.
 3A.    I think I just did.
 4Q.    No, I don't think you did.
 5MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object to Mr.
 6 Gelblum --
 7MR. GELBLUM:  I object to the witness not
 8 answering the questions.
 9THE COURT:  Okay.
10      Answer the question.
11Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  The shoes are closest
12 to the reflective surface, right?
13A.    Yes.
14Q.    And couldn't the red that you see be a
15 result of the reflection from the surrounding
16 surfaces?
17MR. LEONARD:  Objection, asked and answered.
18THE COURT:  Overruled.
19A.    I think not.
20Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  You don't think it's
21 possible?
22A.    I don't think that's what we're seeing.
23 It extends beyond the physical surface itself.
24Q.    Okay.
25      Would you agree that the general lighting
26 in this photograph is from the back -- roughly from
27 the back?
28MR. GELBLUM:  I'll put up the whole photograph.
 
    32
 1 You can take that down.
 2
 3    (Mr. Foster complies.)
 4
 5Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  The light seems to be
 6 coming from his right and behind a little bit?
 7A.    No, I can't agree with that at all.
 8Q.    Okay.
 9      In any event, sir, are you aware that the
10 kind of red aura that you claim to see in that picture
11 is something that happens with back-lit objects?
12A.    Under certain lighting and atmospheric
13 circumstances, I guess it could.
14Q.    Okay.
15A.    Why only one picture?  Why not all the
16 rest?
17Q.    We've already discussed, sir, that this
18 is the only picture on the whole roll where somebody
19 is walking and on a red surface, haven't we?
20A.    No, I don't believe we have.
21Q.    You do have memory problems?
22MR. LEONARD:  Objection, argumentative.
23THE COURT:  Overruled.  He testified to that at
24 the last session he was a witness at.
25A.    Yes, I have problems with memory.
26Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Quite severe sometimes,
27 right?
28A.    It happens.
 
    33
 1Q.    Let me go on to the next point.
 2      You said something about you had a
 3 problem with the exposure, right, exposure between
 4 various photographs?
 5A.    That's correct.
 6Q.    Now, exposure in a photograph depends on,
 7 oh, a whole host of factors, right?
 8A.    Yes.
 9Q.    The size of the opening of the shutter
10 when it's open is one factor?
11A.    Um-hum.
12Q.    Right?
13A.    Yes.
14Q.    And amount of time the shutter is open?
15A.    When you say shutter, you mean aperture?
16Q.    Aperture.
17A.    Okay.
18Q.    The time that the shutter is open?
19A.    That's correct.
20Q.    The film speed?
21A.    Yes.
22Q.    The amount of light at the moment the
23 photo is clicked?
24A.    That's correct.
25Q.    All sorts of things?
26A.    Um-hum.
27Q.    Now, you've taken lots of pictures in
28 your life, right?
 
    34
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    And you've had pictures where some of the
 3 pictures on the roll are exposed properly and some are
 4 not exposed properly?
 5A.    That's correct.
 6Q.    You've even had situations where you got
 7 a good exposure followed by bad exposure followed by
 8 good exposure, right?
 9A.    Depending on the camera, yes.
10Q.    Now, what you said about this on direct
11 examination -- I'm going to read it.  I want to make
12 sure we get it exactly right.
13MR. GELBLUM:  It's page 194, Mr. Leonard, from
14 December 18.
15MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object unless there
16 can be a foundation laid with this inconsistent
17 statement.
18THE COURT:  Overruled.
19MR. GELBLUM:  Are you there?
20MR. LEONARD:  194?
21MR. GELBLUM:  Yes, lines 3 to 11.
22MR. LEONARD:  Of the trial testimony?
23MR. GELBLUM:  Yes.  It says, "The ones near
24 Mr. Simpson" -- I'm sorry, could you put up 1832
25 again.
26MR. FOSTER:  The same?
27MR. GELBLUM:  1832, the contact sheet, yes.
28
 
    35
 1    (Exhibit 1832 is displayed.)
 2
 3MR. GELBLUM:  Thank you.
 4Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  (Reading:).
 5      The ones near Mr. Simpson are
 6       extremely overexposed and they're the
 7       only ones that are overexposed,
 8       indicating that perhaps someone had
 9       tried, at some point, to balance frames
10       of him to the mean roll and perhaps did
11       not bother to make any kind of a
12       correction around the ones close to him.
13      It's conjecture, but there is a
14       problem with that because the exposures
15       are so dead on for all the rest.
16      Do you recall that testimony?
17A.    Pretty much, yes.
18Q.    And the one from Mr. Simpson is dead on,
19 too, right?
20A.    Can -- can we focus that and top light
21 it.
22    (Elmo is adjusted.)
23
24Q.    Okay.
25      Mr. Groden, the exposure from Mr. Simpson
26 is dead on as well?  That was the point of your
27 testimony?
28A.    Yes.
 
    36
 1Q.    Okay.
 2      Now, sir, isn't it true that, unless
 3 you're looking for conspiracies everywhere you go in
 4 life, to the extent there's any problem with the
 5 exposures in this, the problem is that the two that
 6 are overexposed -- are overexposed, that's the only
 7 problem, isn't it?
 8MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object.  That's
 9 argumentative.
10THE COURT:  Overruled.
11A.    Can you repeat the question.
12Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Yeah.
13      The only problem with the exposures on
14 this contact sheet is that these two, numbers 2 and 3,
15 are overexposed, that's the only problem, right?  The
16 other exposures, including the one of Mr. Simpson, are
17 perfectly exposed, right?
18A.    Yes, they're all normal except those two.
19Q.    Now, when Mr. Simpson was -- I'm sorry --
20 Mr. Leonard was examining you, you added another point
21 that you didn't make at your deposition having to do
22 with moisture.
23      Do you recall that?
24A.    In response to a question?
25Q.    Yes, from Mr. Leonard.
26A.    I believe, if I remember correctly, I was
27 asked whether I noticed any moisture on the shoe or on
28 the field, and I answered as I recall.
 
    37
 1Q.    No, no, you answered more than that.  You
 2 answered you would have expected to see some moisture
 3 on the side or sole of the shoe or even some splashing
 4 where the heel hit the ground.
 5      Do you recall that?
 6A.    Based on the representation that it had
 7 been raining that morning, yes.
 8Q.    Yeah.
 9      Who made that representation to you?
10A.    I don't recall.
11Q.    Well, did you talk to any defense lawyer
12 besides Mr. Leonard?
13A.    I've spoken with several of them.
14Q.    Which one told you it was raining that
15 morning, sir?
16A.    I don't recall.  As I remember, it was --
17 I was told it -- or it was in the deposition somewhere
18 along the line.
19Q.    Well, I'll tell you it wasn't in the
20 deposition.
21      Okay.
22      Who told you?
23A.    I don't recall.
24Q.    When did they tell you?
25A.    I don't recall that either.
26Q.    After the deposition, right?
27A.    Again, I don't recall.
28MR. GELBLUM:  Want to put up 2291 again,
 
    38
 1 please.
 2
 3    (Exhibit 2291 is displayed.)
 4
 5Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  You didn't mention this
 6 point at the deposition, did you?
 7A.    Wasn't a major point for me.
 8Q.    Well, please answer -- listen to my
 9 question and the answers will go much faster.
10      You didn't mention it in the deposition,
11 did you?
12A.    The answer is no.
13Q.    Yet you said in court, on that stand that
14 it was one of the first things you looked for when you
15 went to Buffalo, right?
16      Do you recall that?
17A.    I don't recall saying that, no.
18Q.    You went to Buffalo before the
19 deposition, didn't you?
20A.    That's correct.
21Q.    You never mentioned this at the
22 deposition, did you?
23A.    About moisture?
24Q.    Yeah.
25A.    No.
26Q.    In fact, Mr. Leonard is the one who told
27 you to mention it on the stand?
28A.    I don't know.
 
    39
 1Q.    That's a point he told you to make?
 2A.    I was asked during the testimony if I saw
 3 any moisture.  I said no.
 4Q.    You were prepared for that, sir, weren't
 5 you?  You didn't hear that for the first time on the
 6 stand?
 7A.    I told you I heard that it had been wet
 8 on the field.
 9Q.    Mr. Leonard, before you testified, told
10 you to make a point of saying that there was no
11 evidence of moisture, right?
12A.    That's correct.
13MR. LEONARD:  Argumentative, asked and
14 answered.
15THE COURT:  The answer may remain.
16Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  This is a whole kind of
17 different point.  Your other points have to do with
18 photographic anomalies?
19A.    That's correct.
20Q.    This isn't a photographic anomaly, is it?
21A.    No.
22Q.    You don't expect to see moisture if the
23 field was in fact wet?
24A.    That's correct.
25Q.    You have no personal information
26 whatsoever about the field was wet at the time that
27 picture was taken, do you?
28A.    No.
 
    40
 1Q.    You weren't there, right?
 2A.    Of course not.
 3Q.    You never physically observed, visually
 4 observed anything yourself -- anything yourself to
 5 show you that the field was wet, have you?
 6A.    No.
 7Q.    You looked at the whole contact sheet,
 8 right?
 9A.    That's correct.
10Q.    Nobody else's shoes are wet, are they?
11A.    No.
12Q.    Nobody else splashing around there?
13A.    No.
14Q.    So why would you expect to see Mr.
15 Simpson's shoes wet?
16MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object.  This is
17 argumentative.
18THE COURT:  Overruled.
19Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  So why would you expect
20 Mr. Simpson's shoes to be wet, sir?
21A.    I heard that it had been raining, I don't
22 remember from where, but I would have expected that if
23 it had been raining, his shoes would have been wet.
24 It's not --
25Q.    Sir, when you looked at other contact
26 sheets, nobody else's shoes are wet, are they?
27A.    No.
28MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object,
 
    41
 1 argumentative, asked and answered.
 2THE COURT:  You've gone through that twice.
 3MR. GELBLUM:  Okay.
 4Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Did you talk to a
 5 single person that was at the game?
 6A.    No.
 7Q.    You talk to Mr. Simpson?
 8A.    No.
 9Q.    So obviously, if the field was not wet,
10 you wouldn't expect to see moisture, would you?
11A.    No.
12Q.    Now, I want to try and figure out exactly
13 what you're saying about this picture, sir.
14      By the way, have I listed all the points
15 you made about the picture that make you think that
16 it's probably a fake?
17A.    All the points that we discussed, yes, I
18 believe so.
19Q.    I want you to tell the jury what you
20 think was faked on this picture.
21      Are you telling the jury, sir -- I'll
22 withdraw that question.
23      Are you telling the jury that somebody
24 went in and put new shoes on a picture of Mr. Simpson?
25A.    That's a possibility, yes.
26Q.    Is that what you're telling the jury?
27A.    I'm saying it's a possibility, yes.
28Q.    Are you saying that's what happened?
 
    42
 1A.    I'm saying it's a possibility.
 2Q.    Are you saying somebody put new pants on
 3 Mr. Simpson?
 4A.    Partial.  It is possible.  Partial.  I
 5 don't think that somebody put a whole new set of
 6 pants.
 7Q.    You are aware Mr. Simpson admitted, when
 8 he was sitting in the same chair you're sitting in,
 9 the top part of the picture is, in fact, a picture of
10 him, his head, his upper torso, his hands, his tie,
11 his shirt, his jacket?
12A.    I was not present for his testimony.
13Q.    Assume that's true.
14A.    If you want me to assume it --
15Q.    Assuming that's true, what you're saying
16 is that you think there's a possibility that somebody
17 went in and took an existing picture of Mr. Simpson at
18 that game, on that field, and put new pants and new
19 shoes on his body?
20      Is that what you're saying?
21A.    That's a possibility.
22Q.    A one percent possibility?
23A.    I'd say a very large possibility.  I
24 can't -- I can't quantify that.
25Q.    What?  What quantity?
26A.    I can't.  I just told you.
27Q.    More than 50?
28A.    I'd say much more than 50.
 
    43
 1Q.    More than 60?
 2A.    Yes.
 3Q.    More than 65?
 4A.    You're playing games, aren't you?
 5      I'm sorry --
 6Q.    Mr. Groden, you're up here in a very
 7 important trial.
 8THE COURT:  Just a minute.  You don't need
 9 that.
10Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Mr. Groden, more than
11 65 percent?
12A.    Yes.
13Q.    More than 70 percent?
14A.    Yes.
15Q.    More than 75 percent?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    More than 80 percent?
18A.    Would you give me the question one more
19 time, exactly as you phrased it.
20Q.    If somebody went and took a picture of
21 Mr. Simpson --
22A.    Um-hum.
23Q.    -- that had been taken on September 26,
24 1993, in that location, the end zone of Rich Stadium
25 in Buffalo, and put on new pants and new shoes.
26A.    I'm saying it's an extremely high
27 possibility.  I would say, to stop this, I would say
28 greater than a 90 percent probability either the pants
 
    44
 1 and/or the shoes were -- or the shoes alone were
 2 changed.  If indeed that was a legitimate picture of
 3 Mr. Simpson in the first place.
 4Q.    Well, let's -- we'll find out what your
 5 opinion is.
 6      Was it a legitimate picture of
 7 Mr. Simpson in the first place?
 8      Bear in mind, sir, Mr. Simpson has
 9 admitted that the top part of the picture is in fact a
10 picture of him wearing those clothes at that game.
11A.    I have no way of knowing whether there
12 was a legitimate picture like this prior to this or
13 not.
14Q.    What do you mean?
15A.    If this picture is a composite, as I
16 believe it to be, the whole thing could have been
17 manufactured.  I don't know that -- there could have
18 been a whole separate picture of Mr. Simpson that I'm
19 not even aware of.  I don't know.
20Q.    Taken where, on Mars?
21MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object.
22Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Taken where?
23THE COURT:  Overruled.
24Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Taken where?
25A.    I don't know.
26Q.    Mr. Simpson -- we have a videotape that
27 we showed of Mr. Simpson at the game.
28      Would you like to see it?
 
    45
 1A.    I don't care.
 2Q.    At the game -- did you see the videotape?
 3A.    Yes.
 4Q.    You've seen the videotape.
 5      He's wearing the same tie and the same
 6 shirt and the same jacket and the same pants.
 7      Have you seen that videotape?
 8A.    Yes.  The tonal values of the tie are
 9 different, but I would probably say it's probably the
10 same outfit.
11Q.    Well, Mr. Simpson said it's the same, so
12 he ought to know.
13A.    I don't doubt it.
14Q.    Okay.
15      Given all that, you still think that this
16 was not a picture taken at this game on this day?
17A.    I have no way of knowing.  I didn't take
18 the picture.  You want me to assume that I know for a
19 fact that it was taken that day, I don't know that.
20Q.    You're being passed off to this jury as a
21 photo expert.  We're entitled to your opinion about
22 what's going on with this picture.
23MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object.  This
24 witness was qualified by you as an expert in a
25 hearing.  I object to passed off.  I think it's
26 argumentative; it also misstates the state of the
27 record.
28THE COURT:  The record is that I am not
 
    46
 1 vouching for this or any other expert put on by
 2 anybody, and I don't think that's an appropriate
 3 comment for you to leave with the jury.  I'm not
 4 vouching for any expert, whether it's the plaintiff
 5 expert or defense expert.
 6MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object to this
 7 remark, passed off.  I object to that.
 8Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Mr. Groden, in your
 9 expert --
10MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I'd like a ruling.
11THE COURT:  Overruled.
12Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  In your expert opinion,
13 sir, was this a photograph taken of Mr. Simpson at
14 this football game on this day in this end zone and
15 somebody went back and put new shoes and pants on him?
16A.    And/or pants, yes.  It's my opinion --
17Q.    And --
18A.    It's my opinion that it could very well
19 have been a legitimate photograph initially; in other
20 words, there may have been a photograph of him that
21 has in some way been altered.
22Q.    And in some way -- is it greater than 90
23 percent chance that the way it was altered -- that new
24 pants and new shoes were put on him?
25A.    New pants and/or --
26Q.    Well --
27A.    -- certainly --
28Q.    Is there --
 
    47
 1A.    I would say certainly shoes, yes, or --
 2 or if, in fact, they're the shoes, have not been
 3 changed, that they have been altered in some way.
 4Q.    It's a very important point, sir.  I want
 5 to be specific.
 6      Are you saying there's a greater than 90
 7 percent chance that somebody put new shoes on this
 8 picture of Mr. Simpson?
 9A.    Based on my analysis of the photograph, I
10 would say yes.
11Q.    And what were the original shoes?
12A.    I have no idea.
13Q.    But they weren't these, right, wouldn't
14 make any sense to replace the same shoes, right?
15A.    No.
16Q.    And one of the points you made and
17 missed, but I will, that this is the first frame on
18 the roll, remember mentioning that with Mr. Leonard?
19A.    Um-hum.  Yes.
20Q.    And you found that significant 'cause
21 that's the easiest to alter, right?
22A.    Yes.
23Q.    So by pointing out that this is the first
24 frame on the roll, sir, are you trying to tell this
25 jury that what happened was, on September 26, 1993,
26 Mr. Scull took a photograph of Mr. Simpson, making
27 sure it was head to toe, making sure it was the first
28 one on the roll, the prime position for alteration,
 
    48
 1 'cause he knew that nine months later somebody would
 2 kill Mr. Simpson's former wife and Ronald Lyle Goldman
 3 and leave bloody shoe prints in Mr. Simpson's size 12
 4 in an extraordinarily rare shoe type to this, so that
 5 Mr. Scull would have a picture that was in prime
 6 position to go in and put those Bruno Magli shoes on
 7 Mr. Simpson?
 8      Is that what you're saying?
 9A.    Of course not.
10MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object.
11THE COURT:  Sustained.
12MR. GELBLUM:  Excuse me one minute, Your Honor.
13
14    (Pause.)
15
16Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Now, when we were here
17 last time, you talked a little bit in the course of
18 reading the deposition excerpt that one of the things
19 you had done recently in looking at whether a
20 photograph was altered or not in another situation was
21 you saw a picture of a road sign in Dealey Plaza where
22 Mr. Kennedy was shot purported to show a bullet hole
23 in it?
24A.    That's correct.
25Q.    One of the reasons you were suspicious
26 about that, you had seen other photographs of that
27 road sign taken on that day and had never seen a
28 bullet hole before?
 
    49
 1A.    I don't know that they testified to that,
 2 but it is accurate, yes.
 3Q.    So one thing that you do when you're
 4 determining authenticity of a photograph is to see
 5 whether you can find other photographs of the same
 6 object, the same scene, the same day, to see whether
 7 what you're looking at is in those photographs as
 8 well?
 9A.    That would be part of it, yes.
10Q.    So if there were other photographs of
11 Mr. Simpson taken on this same day, at this same game,
12 in this same stadium, and he's wearing the same
13 outfit, and they're taken by a different photographer,
14 with a different camera, and he's wearing the same
15 pants and same shoes, that would affect your opinion,
16 wouldn't it, sir?
17MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I'm going to object.
18 There's a lack of foundation basis.  Same basis for
19 the objection I made prior as well.
20MR. GELBLUM:  We'll tie it up.
21THE COURT:  Based on the affidavit or
22 declaration filed on this -- in support of plaintiffs'
23 position, motion overruled.
24Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Can you answer the
25 question, please.
26A.    Will you finish -- will you repeat the
27 question or finish it.
28Q.    Sir, if there were other photographs of
 
    50
 1 Mr. Simpson taken on the same day, September 26, 1993,
 2 in the same stadium, same football game, different
 3 camera, different photographer, and Mr. Simpson has
 4 the same clothes on, same jacket, same tie, same
 5 shirt, same belt, same pants, same shoes, wouldn't
 6 that compel you to conclude that your testimony that
 7 these shoes have been put on is wrong?
 8MR. LEONARD:  Same objection.
 9A.    No.
10Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  It wouldn't?
11A.    It would not change what I found in the
12 photograph.
13Q.    You've answered the question.
14A.    I did.
15Q.    Let me show you some photographs, sir.
16MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, this is outside the
17 scope.  Also, based on the previous answer, these are
18 irrelevant at this point.
19THE COURT:  Overruled.
20Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  See a photograph here
21 of Mr. Simpson with five other gentlemen standing on a
22 football field?
23A.    Yes.
24Q.    Okay.
25      And here's an enlargement of the bottom
26 half of that photograph.
27      Do you see that?
28      Do you see the shoes Mr. Simpson is
 
    51
 1 wearing?
 2A.    Yes.
 3Q.    Okay.
 4      Show you some more.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  Your Honor, these are our only
 6 prints.  If I may, I'd like to pass them around to the
 7 jury once Mr. Groden has looked at them.
 8THE COURT:  If you want to.
 9      Mark them.
10MR. GELBLUM:  I'll mark the first one, the
11 group photo --
12MR. FOSTER:  2295.
13MR. GELBLUM:  2295.
14
15     (The instrument herein described
16     as a group photo was marked for
17     identification as Plaintiffs'
18     Exhibit No. 2295.)
19
20Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Does 2295 change your
21 opinion, sir?
22A.    About what I found?
23Q.    About whether -- about your opinion that
24 somebody added shoes to Mr. Scull's photograph.
25A.    Doesn't change my opinion at all.
26Q.    Okay.
27MR. GELBLUM:  Mark the next one, which is an
28 enlargement of the bottom half of 2295.  That's 2296.
 
    52
 1     (The instrument herein described
 2     as an enlargement of bottom half
 3     of Exhibit 2295 was marked for
 4     identification as Plaintiffs'
 5     Exhibit No. 2296.)
 6
 7Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  I ask you if that one
 8 changes your opinion, sir?
 9A.    Does not.
10Q.    Okay.
11MR. GELBLUM:  Mark next in order a photograph
12 of Mr. Simpson signing an autograph for the
13 white-haired gentleman with the blue jacket with a
14 camera in his hand.  It's 2297.  That shows
15 Mr. Simpson's shoes.
16     (The instrument herein described
17     as a photograph of Mr. Simpson
18     with a white-haired gentleman in a
19     blue jacket with a camera in his
20     hand was marked for identification
21     as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2297.)
22
23Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  I ask you if that
24 changes your opinion?
25A.    No.
26Q.    Okay.
27      Show you an enlargement of the bottom
28 half of 2297 --
 
    53
 1MR. GELBLUM:  Which we'll mark as 2298.
 2
 3     (The instrument herein described
 4     as enlargement of bottom half of
 5     Exhibit 2297 was marked for
 6     identification as Plaintiffs'
 7     Exhibit No. 2298.)
 8
 9Q.    I ask you if 2298 changes your opinion?
10A.    No, it doesn't.
11Q.    Show you another photograph of
12 Mr. Simpson with another one of the gentlemen who were
13 in 2295, this gentleman is wearing a blue shirt, blue
14 pants and a dark blue jacket and brown shoes.
15MR. GELBLUM:  We'll mark that next in order.
16THE CLERK:  2299.
17MR. GELBLUM:  2299.
18
19     (The instrument herein described
20     as a photograph of Mr. Simpson
21     with a gentleman wearing a blue
22     shirt, blue pants and a dark blue
23     jacket and brown shoes was marked
24     for identification as Plaintiffs'
25     Exhibit No. 2299.)
26
27Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And I ask you if that
28 changes your opinion?
 
    54
 1A.    It does not.
 2Q.    And I'll show you an enlargement of the
 3 bottom half of 2299.
 4MR. GELBLUM:  Which will be 2300.
 5
 6     (The instrument herein described
 7     as an enlargement of bottom half
 8     of Exhibit 2299 was marked for
 9     identification as Plaintiffs'
10     Exhibit No. 2300.)
11
12Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And I ask you if that
13 changes your opinion, your opinion being that somebody
14 went in and added Bruno Magli shoes to Mr. Scull's
15 photograph?
16A.    Does not change my opinion at all.
17Q.    Show you another photograph of another
18 gentlemen who's in the overall picture.
19MR. GELBLUM:  We'll mark this as 2301.  This
20 gentleman has his jacket buttoned, he's wearing tan
21 slacks and a brown plaid jacket.
22
23     (The instrument herein described
24     as a photograph of Mr. Simpson
25     with a gentleman wearing a brown
26     plaid jacket and tan slacks was
27     marked for identification as
28     Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2301.)
 
    55
 1Q.    I ask you if 2301 changes your opinion?
 2A.    Does not.
 3Q.    And I'll show you an enlargement of the
 4 bottom half of 2301.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  We'll mark that 2302.
 6
 7     (The instrument herein described
 8     as an enlargement of bottom half
 9     of Exhibit 2301 was marked for
10     identification as Plaintiffs'
11     Exhibit No. 2302.)
12
13Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And I ask you if that
14 changes your opinion?
15A.    Does not.
16Q.    Finally, sir, I'll show you two contact
17 sheets.
18MR. GELBLUM:  We'll mark the first one as 2303,
19 the contact sheet on which these enlargements appear,
20 and on this contact sheet, 2303, there are a total of
21 27 images of Mr. Simpson with these various gentlemen,
22 all of which show Mr. Simpson's feet and shoes.
23
24     (The instrument herein described
25     as a contact sheet containing 27
26     images of Mr. Simpson was marked
27     for identification as Plaintiffs'
28     Exhibit No. 2303.)
 
    56
 1
 2Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And I ask you if that
 3 changes your opinion?
 4A.    Nope.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  And finally, it's -- 2304,
 6 another contact sheet, in the same game as the first
 7 three photographs, making a total of 30 photographs of
 8 Mr. Simpson with shoes on.
 9
10     (The instrument herein described
11     as a contact sheet containing 30
12     photographs of Mr. Simpson was
13     marked for identification as
14     Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2304.)
15
16Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  And I ask you if that
17 changes your opinion?
18A.    Does not.
19Q.    Okay.
20MR. GELBLUM:  May I pass these to the jury,
21 Your Honor?
22THE COURT:  You may.
23MR. LEONARD:  Same objection.
24THE COURT:  Overruled.
25MR. GELBLUM:  I'm going to put the contact
26 sheets on top because they're smaller.
27
28    (Jurors review exhibits.)
 
    57
 1
 2MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, these photographs
 3 haven't been admitted into evidence.
 4THE COURT:  I'll let the jury review them --
 5MR. GELBLUM:  We'll tie them up.
 6THE COURT:  -- On the representation and
 7 declaration filed by plaintiff.
 8Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Now, Mr. Groden, you
 9 noticed, I assume, that in these photographs
10 Mr. Simpson has a handkerchief in his pocket?
11A.    That's correct.
12Q.    He doesn't have one in the photograph of
13 him wearing the shoes that Mr. Scull took?
14A.    That's correct.
15Q.    You know he does have the handkerchief in
16 the videotape?
17A.    I don't recall the videotape.
18Q.    Did you see any sign of moisture on any
19 of these photographs I just showed you?
20A.    Yes.
21Q.    You did.
22      Where was that, sir?
23A.    The --
24Q.    Which one would you like?
25A.    I'm not sure which one it was.
26      This one.  2302.
27
28
 
    58
 1     (Witness indicates to Exhibit
 2     2302.)
 3
 4Q.    You're pointing to darker spots on the
 5 leather?
 6A.    Yes, which could well be moisture.  It's
 7 a possibility.
 8Q.    You see any moisture on the field?
 9A.    Nope.
10Q.    And you don't know what those dark spots
11 are?
12A.    No.
13Q.    Could this be a difference in the brush
14 of the leather, could be a number of things, right,
15 sir?
16A.    Could be any number of things.
17      On 2300 it shows it as well.
18Q.    It being the darker spots on the shoes?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    Okay.
21      Now, you knew about these photos before
22 you took the stand today, right?
23A.    I heard about them, yes.
24Q.    And you discussed them with Mr. Leonard
25 before you took the stand, didn't you?
26A.    That's correct.
27Q.    Okay.
28      You discussed what you're going to say
 
    59
 1 about them?
 2A.    No.
 3Q.    You discussed the pictures?
 4A.    Yes.
 5Q.    Now, your bottom line opinion, sir, on
 6 the photograph of Mr. Scull -- by Mr. Scull showing
 7 Mr. Simpson wearing the Bruno Magli shoes, is that you
 8 think on balance it's probably not genuine, it's
 9 probably a fake, but you're not sure; isn't that
10 correct?
11A.    No one could be 100 percent sure.
12Q.    Please answer my question.
13A.    On balance, yes.
14Q.    But you're not sure, correct?
15A.    No.
16Q.    Am I correct that you're not sure?
17A.    If you're asking yes or no, the answer is
18 yes, I, to a massive degree of certainty, am sure that
19 they are faked.
20MR. GELBLUM:  Would you put up the deposition,
21 please.
22      This is page 14, lines 5 to 12.
23A.    Massive is the wrong word.  I would say
24 overwhelming.
25Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Say whatever you want.
26 Right now, sir, I'm going to look at your deposition.
27      (Reading:)
28      Q.     Your bottom line opinion
 
    60
 1       here is that you observed what you
 2       perceive are some problems with the
 3       negative?
 4      A.     Yes.
 5      Q.     That leads you to think
 6       that on balance it's probably not
 7       genuine, it's probably a fake, But
 8       you're not sure.  Is that fair?
 9      A.     I'd say that that's
10       accurate, yeah.
11      Now, particularly after seeing these new
12 photographs of Mr. Simpson wearing the same shoes,
13 isn't it particularly clear that you're not sure about
14 these, about Mr. Scull's photos?
15A.    It doesn't change my opinion, no.
16Q.    Okay.
17MR. GELBLUM:  No further questions, Your Honor.
18THE COURT:  Ten-minute recess, ladies and
19 gentlemen.  Don't talk about the case, don't form or
20 express an opinion.
21    (Recess.)
22
23     (Jurors resume their respective
24     seats.)
25
26  REDIRECT EXAMINATION
27 BY MR. LEONARD:
28Q.    Good morning, Mr. Groden?
 
    61
 1A.    Good morning.
 2Q.    Before we get into some of the substance
 3 here I want to go through, based on some of
 4 Mr. Gelblum's questions in cross-examination, some of
 5 your background again.
 6      Mr. Gelblum asked you on
 7 cross-examination about your experience in the
 8 military and particularly the reason for and the basis
 9 for your leaving the military.
10      Do you remember that?
11A.    Yes.
12Q.    Can you tell the jury -- can you explain
13 to the jury why you left the military?
14A.    A sergeant in my company was drunk and
15 beat me up and to keep it under the rug, they gave me
16 a discharge because of an existing sinus problem that
17 I had that they weren't able to deal with.  That was
18 the excuse, but the real reason was, in fact, I had
19 been beaten up by the sergeant.
20Q.    Why did this sergeant beat you up, sir?
21MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, speculation,
22 relevance.
23MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor --
24THE COURT:  Overruled.  You opened it.
25A.    The sergeant was anti-Semitic and I'm
26 Jewish.
27Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Now, do you think that
28 the fact that you were beaten up -- by the way, how
 
    62
 1 old were you, sir?
 2A.    18.
 3Q.    Do you think the fact that you were
 4 beaten up when you were 18 years old by an
 5 anti-Semitic sergeant has anything to do with your
 6 ability to observe the phenomena that you observed and
 7 also to explain them to the jury?
 8A.    No, not at all.
 9Q.    Mr. Gelblum asked you about strokes that
10 you had had.
11      How did you happen to have strokes, can
12 you explain that to the jury?
13A.    About two years ago I was walking in a
14 parking lot and slipped on a patch of ice and hit my
15 head, which precipitated a series of strokes.
16Q.    And from time to time have you some
17 memory problems as a result of that; is that right?
18A.    That's correct.
19Q.    Do you think that has affected your
20 ability whatsoever to analyze the photograph and to
21 explain your analysis to the jury?
22A.    Not at all.
23Q.    Now, Mr. Gelblum got into some extent
24 your experience with the House Assassination
25 Committee.
26      Do you remember that?
27A.    Yes.
28Q.    I asked you in some detail what your role
 
    63
 1 was, correct, do you remember that?
 2A.    Yes.
 3Q.    And in particular he was asking you if
 4 you had done any actual analysis of photographs on
 5 behalf of, or in conjunction with your work with the
 6 Kennedys, do you remember those questions?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    Now, in fact, did you do a photo
 9 analysis?
10A.    Yes.
11Q.    At some point, there was a panel of
12 photographic experts, correct?
13A.    Yes.
14Q.    Okay.
15      And you were working in conjunction --
16 you weren't a member of the panel, you were working in
17 conjunction with the panel; is that correct?
18A.    That's correct.
19Q.    And was there -- did there come a time
20 when a proficiency test was undertaken of the panel
21 and that you participated in that?
22      In other words, a test to determine the
23 proficiency of the experts and also yourself in
24 analyzing and determining whether the photographs are
25 fake or real?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    Okay.
28      Describe just in very general terms that
 
    64
 1 proficiency test that was done?
 2A.    A few members of the photo panel were
 3 assigned to create four sets of photographs, genuine
 4 photographs that look genuine, genuine photographs
 5 that appear to be fake, fake photographs that appear
 6 genuine, and fake photographs that were obviously
 7 fake.  And the set of all four of those were placed as
 8 a package, they were numbered and packaged, and a
 9 written test was given to the entire photo panel and
10 myself to determine the ability to detect phonies and
11 to detect fake phonies, in fact.
12Q.    How did you do on that test?
13A.    I got 100 percent.
14Q.    Did anyone else get 100 percent?
15A.    No, none of them did.
16Q.    Mr. Gelblum asked you if you had dropped
17 out of high school.
18      Did you drop out of high school, sir?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    Why was that?
21A.    We didn't have very much money and my
22 going to school and remaining there was a strain on my
23 mother.  My mother and father had just separated and
24 it was my sister, myself and my mother, and it was a
25 real financial drain on her.
26Q.    When you dropped out of high school is
27 that when you went into the military?
28A.    That's correct.
 
    65
 1Q.    By the way, you have a high school
 2 degree, don't you?
 3A.    Yes.
 4Q.    How did you get that?
 5A.    When I was in the army I took the general
 6 equivalency diploma, GED test and passed it with
 7 flying colors, and also got a year's college credit
 8 the same way.
 9Q.    Does the fact that you had to drop out of
10 high school, you think that affects your ability to do
11 the analysis you did here and to explain your results
12 to the jury; you think that affects it at all, sir?
13A.    No.
14Q.    Mr. Gelblum asked you about a situation
15 where you had contributed to a story to the Globe
16 newspaper.
17      Do you remember that?
18A.    Yes.
19Q.    Now, Mr. Gelblum, in his questioning, was
20 trying to suggest that you were --
21MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, Your Honor.
22THE COURT:  Sustained.
23Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Explain to the jury,
24 No. 1, what that -- what the story was, in general
25 terms, and whether or not it was your purpose to sell
26 photographs as opposed to the story itself, sir?
27A.    When I was a staff photographic
28 consultant to the House Assassinations Committee I had
 
    66
 1 made the discovery that the autopsy photographs of
 2 President Kennedy, at least some of them, were
 3 questionable as to their authenticity based on
 4 physical anomalies within the photograph itself, and
 5 my knowledge of the statements of Dallas doctors who
 6 had worked on President Kennedy in the lifesaving
 7 efforts on November 22nd of '63, and also of medical
 8 personnel who had worked on the -- on the president
 9 after that time and in Bethesda Naval Hospital.  The
10 photographs did not show what was described by every
11 one of the doctors.
12      I had gone to the Chief Counsel of the
13 House Committee which was Professor Blakey and
14 suggested, very strongly, perhaps it would be a good
15 idea to show those questionable photographs to the
16 Dallas doctors to determine their authenticity.  For
17 two solid years Professor Blakey refused to do it.
18      When the committee broke up and didn't
19 exist anymore I was very disturbed by the fact that
20 this had not been resolved, so I took copies of
21 autopsy photographs and went to the Dallas doctors and
22 other witnesses who dealt with the body, including
23 Dealey Plaza witnesses, and I showed them the
24 photographs, and every single one of them without
25 exception said that the photographs were indeed fake,
26 and I then knew that I was correct.
27      And I felt that the public needed to know
28 this, I thought it was a major issue, and an issue of
 
    67
 1 the Kennedy assassination.
 2Q.    Now, was -- was the Globe, the Globe
 3 newspaper your first choice of a medium to get this
 4 out to the public, sir?
 5A.    No.
 6Q.    Did you -- had you attempted to go to
 7 other publications to try to get this story out to
 8 people?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    Were your efforts unsuccessful?
11A.    They were unsuccessful, yes.
12Q.    Did you prepare a documentary on this
13 issue of the autopsy photographs?
14A.    Yes, a videotape documentary.
15Q.    Now, Mr. Gelblum also asked you about the
16 backyard photograph of Oswald; do you remember that?
17A.    Yes.
18Q.    Okay.
19      You did an analysis of that photograph?
20A.    Yes.
21Q.    And you came to the opinion that the
22 photograph was fake; is that right?
23A.    That's correct.
24Q.    Now, there was -- there were some people
25 in the committee that agreed and some that disagreed
26 with regard to that; is that true, sir?
27A.    That is correct.
28Q.    Subsequent to your analysis -- by the
 
    68
 1 way, there are others who agreed with you in that
 2 respect; is that correct?
 3A.    Yes, within the committee.
 4      Also photographic experts for the Royal
 5 Canadian Mounted Police and Scotland Yard have also
 6 agreed.
 7Q.    Now, when you were on cross-examination
 8 today, you were shown some photographs of the court to
 9 show Mr. Simpson wearing particular shoes and
10 particular clothing.
11      When was the first time you've ever seen
12 those photographs?
13A.    Right here in this courtroom a few
14 minutes ago.
15Q.    Mr. Gelblum asked you if we had spoken
16 about the photographs.
17      Did we speak about the photographs?
18A.    We did.
19Q.    When was our discussion with regard to
20 the photographs, sir?
21A.    I believe he asked me if I had seen them,
22 and I had not.
23Q.    Was it your understanding, sir, that
24 those photographs have just been miraculously
25 discovered since you testified here last?
26MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, argumentative.
27MR. LEONARD:  Withdrawn.
28Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Is it your
 
    69
 1 understanding, sir, that those photographs have just
 2 arisen for the first time since you testified here?
 3MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.
 4A.    That's correct.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  His understanding is irrelevant.
 6 Move that his answer be stricken.
 7THE COURT:  Overruled.  State of mind of this
 8 witness.
 9Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Do you have any idea,
10 sir, whether those photographs are authentic or not?
11A.    None at all.
12Q.    Do you have any idea who created the
13 photograph, when the photograph was taken, whether or
14 not the photograph was sold to a tabloid or anything
15 like that, sir?
16A.    None at all.
17Q.    Now, you said to this jury that seeing
18 those photographs for a short period of time, just
19 glimpsing them does not change your opinion about your
20 analysis of this photograph.
21      Tell the jury why, sir.
22A.    The anomalies, the problems that I found
23 within that photograph are still there.  Existence of
24 other photographs that have not been verified, which I
25 haven't had a chance to examine, don't change the fact
26 that the problems of that photograph are there, they
27 certainly are, and 100 more pictures are not going to
28 change that.
 
    70
 1Q.    Now, let's get -- let's talk a little bit
 2 about a couple of other points that Mr. Gelblum raised
 3 on cross-examination about the photograph itself.
 4MR. LEONARD:  I'd like to put up the first
 5 image, please.  I don't believe this has been marked.
 6 Has it?  Oh, it has.
 7MR. P. BAKER:  This is 1835.
 8
 9     (Exhibit 1835 displayed.)
10
11MR. LEONARD:  Zoom in on the right upper
12 corner.
13Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  First of all, I'd like
14 to --
15MR. LEONARD:  Pull back, Mr. Baker, if you
16 will.
17
18    (Elmo adjusted.)
19
20MR. LEONARD:  Can you give me the number again.
21MR. P. BAKER:  1835.
22Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  What does 1835
23 represent, sir?
24A.    Its a blowup of the frame we've been
25 referring to as 1-1, contact sheet 1, frame No. 1.
26Q.    Is there also a portion of the -- very
27 small portion of the bottom edge or the side edge
28 depending on how you look at it, of 1.2?
 
    71
 1A.    That's correct.  Right at the very top
 2 which is almost off the frame here.
 3Q.    Okay.
 4      Now --
 5A.    Yes.
 6MR. LEONARD:  If we can focus in.
 7
 8     (Elmo adjusted.)
 9
10Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  All right.
11      Now, you see the vertical line -- and
12 actually there appears to be two lines; there's one
13 vertical line that runs -- it appears to run across
14 from 1-1, to 1-2; do you see that, sir?
15A.    Yes.
16Q.    Now, Mr. Gelblum suggested in his
17 questioning --
18MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, Your Honor,
19 mischaracterizes my question.
20THE COURT:  Sustained.
21Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Have you had a chance
22 to -- you've had a chance to look at this image, have
23 you not, sir?
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    Okay.
26      First of all, is there anything about
27 this image that supports your opinion that this first,
28 that 1.1 is -- is out of register?  That is, that 1.1
 
    72
 1 is not aligned with 1.2?
 2A.    Yes, definitely.
 3Q.    Can you demonstrate that to us.
 4      You can step down with the Court's
 5 permission.
 6MR. LEONARD:  Can the witness step down?
 7THE COURT:  Yes.
 8MR. LEONARD:  Thank you.
 9A.    It's extremely obvious here without --
10 without even measuring it, though I guess we could
11 measure it if we want to, that the difference
12 between -- the space between the scratch itself and
13 the edge of frame 1-1 is much closer than it is on
14 1-2.  1-2 is, I'd say, probably twice as far away from
15 the scratch, indicating even better than a straight
16 edge that it's out of alignment.
17Q.    Okay.
18      Now, of course, that assumes that that
19 scratch is straight, correct?
20A.    Yes.
21Q.    Okay.
22      Now, if this is -- if this is supposed to
23 be a mechanical scratch from a camera, okay, would you
24 assume that it would be straight?
25A.    Yes.
26Q.    Okay.
27MR. LEONARD:  If you can pull the photograph
28 back, please, all the way back, please.
 
    73
 1Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Now, utilizing this
 2 same image, sir, is there another way that you can
 3 demonstrate the fact that this negative or this frame
 4 is out of line, out of register?
 5A.    Yes.  It's kind of difficult here because
 6 you can't see the sprocket holes, but by measuring the
 7 sprocket holes to the edge of the frame the picture is
 8 measurably closer to the sprocket holes on the right
 9 side as we view it than it is on the left.
10MR. LEONARD:  If you can focus in on the --
11A.    There we go.  Now you can see it.
12Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Now, if you point out
13 the outline of the sprocket hole, sir, in particular
14 the left edge of the sprocket hole.
15A.    Can we try to focus a little more.
16      Great.  Okay.
17      This is the left edge of the sprocket
18 hole here and this is the edge of the frame.
19Q.    Okay.
20      Now, can you go down to the left-hand
21 corner.  Now --
22A.    Okay.
23Q.    Directing your attention to the edge of
24 the sprocket hole there.
25A.    It's right here.  Right here.
26 (Indicating.)
27Q.    And the edge of the frame?
28A.    Right here.  (Indicating.)
 
    74
 1Q.    Now, the distance between the -- that
 2 distance is larger than the distance on the right-hand
 3 side, that is the same measurement that is from the
 4 edge of the sprocket hole to the edge of the frame; is
 5 that right?
 6A.    That is correct.
 7Q.    Okay.
 8MR. LEONARD:  You can pull back.
 9
10     (Indicating to Elmo.)
11
12Q.    Now, you were asked questions about
13 whether or not the negative could be out of line or
14 out of register by virtue or as a result of some play
15 or movement in the film; is that correct?
16      Do you remember that?
17A.    Yes, I remember that.
18Q.    And you expressed an opinion that it
19 wouldn't be possible for it to be that out of line; is
20 that correct?
21A.    That's correct.
22Q.    Again, I want you to assume now that for
23 purposes of my question that, in fact, the line along
24 the right-hand side between the sprocket hole and the
25 edge of the film is a mechanical scratch from the
26 camera.
27      Are you with me?
28A.    Yes.
 
    75
 1Q.    Okay.
 2      Does -- Would you expect the -- if there
 3 was movement in the film would you expect that line,
 4 that scratch to be straight, sir?
 5A.    Yes.  You'd expect it to run -- well, the
 6 length of the film.
 7Q.    Okay.
 8      If there was movement, if there was play
 9 in the film and the film was jiggling, would you
10 expect that line to be straight or would you expect
11 that there would be indicia of the movement within the
12 scratch, sir?
13A.    If the film were shifting from a --
14 running horizontally, it's shifting top to bottom,
15 would you expect the scratch to be diagonal by the
16 degree that the frames would be out, and that's not
17 the case.
18Q.    In other words, what we have here is --
19MR. LEONARD:  If you can focus in on the
20 right-hand side of the image, please.
21Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  You see the -- what
22 appears to be a blue lining there, sir?
23A.    Yes.
24Q.    What you're saying is that if the camera
25 was moving you'd expect to see a shift in the line; is
26 that correct?
27A.    That's correct.  In order for the -- in
28 order for the frame to have been off because of film
 
    76
 1 movement, you would expect that that line would be
 2 diagonal in the same direction as the shift of the
 3 frame.
 4Q.    So if it was shifting to the right you'd
 5 expect some shifting in the line; is that correct?
 6A.    That's correct.
 7Q.    Do you see any there, sir?
 8A.    No.
 9Q.    Now, if -- let's assume that that is a
10 scratch from the camera in question, all right, the
11 camera that was actually used to take whatever image
12 was there before.
13      If you were going to create a copy
14 negative, a composite negative, and you wanted to hide
15 your tracks would you use the same camera, sir?
16A.    Well, you'd have to if you expected that
17 it would be investigated, yes.
18Q.    Why?
19A.    Well, scratches from a camera could be I
20 guess compared to fingerprints; they should be unique
21 or unique to some degree to each camera.
22      In other words, if there's a
23 manufacturing flaw in one particular camera, a burr,
24 for instance, that could cause a scratch and you
25 wouldn't expect to find that on every camera.
26Q.    So you -- and so what would be the
27 purpose again for using the same camera, sir?
28A.    Again, and we saw this happen in the
 
    77
 1 investigation of the backyard photographs of Lee
 2 Harvey Oswald, scratches were determined to be linked
 3 to that particular camera.
 4      And in this particular case, if indeed
 5 these are scratches, that could be linked to that
 6 camera, you would want to have those scratches on
 7 the -- on the film.
 8Q.    Now, assuming that you're making a copy,
 9 composite negative, and you want to cover your tracks,
10 what do you do with the camera once you -- what would
11 you do with the camera once you created the copy
12 negative?
13A.    You get rid of it.
14Q.    What did Scull say happened to the camera
15 in this case in his deposition, sir?
16A.    He claimed it was stolen.
17Q.    Okay.
18      You didn't have a chance to look at the
19 original camera, did you?
20A.    No.
21Q.    Okay.
22MR. LEONARD:  You can put up the -- take that
23 down.  Yeah.
24MR. P. BAKER:  No. 3 of 2282.
25Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Now, can you tell us
26 what this depicts, sir?
27A.    This is frame 1-1 from the contact sheet
28 showing the edge of the film against the edge of the
 
    78
 1 contact sheet itself.
 2Q.    Okay.
 3A.    And --
 4Q.    I'm sorry.  Go ahead.
 5A.    I would just say it has one horizontal
 6 line and several vertical lines.
 7Q.    Now, you were asked on -- on
 8 cross-examination if that could be actually a
 9 photographic image on -- on what would be I guess 00,
10 and in particular the photographic image of the
11 football field.
12      Can you explain to the jury how that is
13 impossible, sir?
14A.    Well, for several reasons.
15Q.    If you need to focus why don't you direct
16 Mr. Baker's attention.
17A.    Okay.
18      Mr. Baker, if you could just kind of come
19 in and make this as large as possible, side to side,
20 I'd appreciate it.
21MR. P. BAKER:  That's as high as it goes.
22MR. LEONARD:  Just focus in.  That's the
23 highest focus.  All right.  Okay.  That's fine.
24A.    Can I come down?
25Q.    Sure.
26A.    Upon the suggestion of Mr. Gelblum that
27 this might be the football field, I have spent a
28 little more time checking this out because it sounds
 
    79
 1 so ridiculous and I found out that in fact it could
 2 not be that.  No. 1, if this is the edge of an
 3 incoming frame line as he's suggesting, how is it that
 4 the so-called lines of the football field extend
 5 beyond the edge of the frame where no light could
 6 possibly hit.  No. 1.
 7Q.    Okay.
 8A.    No. 2, these lines are random.
 9Q.    What do you mean by that, sir?
10A.    They are not an equal distance from each
11 other.
12Q.    What do you know about a football field
13 that makes that point relevant, sir?
14A.    Well, how would you know how far the ball
15 had traveled if you didn't have an accurate
16 measurement between the lines.  They would have to be
17 an equal distance from each other.  They'd have to
18 have a vanishing point.  If these were parallel lines
19 and if the photographer were shooting away, either on
20 purpose or by accident, there would be a vanishing
21 point which is --
22MR. LEONARD:  Why don't you -- let's put -- we
23 can illustrate that.
24      Why don't you put up -- with the Court's
25 permission, I can put up the drawing pad.
26THE COURT:  All right.
27MR. LEONARD:  Thank you.
28Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  There's a marker.
 
    80
 1A.    There's one right there.
 2Q.    Okay.
 3A.    No matter what the focal lengths of the
 4 lens is, whether it's a wide angle lens like a 28 or
 5 35 millimeter or a normal lens like a 50 to 85
 6 millimeter or a wide angle lens -- I'm sorry, a
 7 telephoto lens like a 500, 1500, something of that
 8 nature, I end up with something called a vanishing
 9 point.
10      That's something used in art as well as
11 photography, and that is at some point away from the
12 lens you're going to have a point where parallel lines
13 run together.  If you stand on a railroad track and
14 look towards the distance they tend to run together,
15 and the point where they disappear and become one line
16 is call the vanishing point.
17      If the camera lens is here and aiming
18 this way, and there are lines on a football field they
19 would appear like this, and depending on the focal
20 length of the lens they would still all run together.
21      These are absolutely parallel.
22      So that's another problem with it.
23      The third problem is that they are far
24 too sharp and they're too narrow.  Lines on the
25 football field would be much wider than this.  The
26 other problem is that these are blue and lines on the
27 football field would be white.
28      There's probably other problems too, but
 
    81
 1 I think the major problem is that this image falls
 2 outside of where the frame line would be.  That's a
 3 photographic impossibility.
 4Q.    You can resume the stand.
 5A.    Thank you.
 6Q.    Is there anything, sir, that has been
 7 discussed on your cross-examination including the
 8 photographs that you were shown for the first time
 9 that changes your opinion at all with regard to this
10 photograph?
11A.    None at all, no.
12MR. LEONARD:  I don't have any further
13 questions.
14MR. GELBLUM:  Just a few, Your Honor.
15      Put 1832 up, please.
16
17      (Exhibit 1832 displayed.)
18
19  RECROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. GELBLUM:
21A.    Last point.
22      We were just talking about, Mr. Groden,
23 would be a what you call the disappearing point.
24MR. PETROCELLI:  Vanishing.
25Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  The vanishing point?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    If you're looking at lines from the
28 sideline, if you're looking at the lines as they're
 
    82
 1 going around from you?
 2A.    Yes.
 3Q.    If you're looking at the lines so you're
 4 perpendicular to the lines --
 5MR. GELBLUM:  Can you focus on line -- on
 6 No. 12, please.
 7Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  If you're looking at
 8 the lines across the field, rather on the field,
 9 looking down the field --
10MR. GELBLUM:  Can you sharpen the lines in
11 here, please, Steve, if you can.
12Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  There's no vanishing
13 point, is there?
14A.    There's the equivalent of a vanishing
15 point.
16Q.    What happens -- you said the lines get
17 closer together as you go back, right?
18A.    Equal distance, closer together, right.
19MR. GELBLUM:  Take that down, Steve.
20
21     (Indicating to Elmo.)
22Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Now, by the way, on
23 that same point, we talked before the -- before the
24 break we were talking about that image, we were
25 talking about what could happen on the frame numbered
26 0, remember that, right?
27A.    Yes.
28Q.    And I asked you if there was a zero zero
 
    83
 1 and you said no, that's silly, just a 0?
 2A.    No, I said -- you said zero zero zero.
 3Q.    There is a zero zero?
 4A.    There is a zero, there is a zero zero.
 5Q.    You saw that on these contact sheets?
 6A.    No, I didn't look.
 7Q.    You want to look?
 8A.    If you like.
 9Q.    Your see a zero zero?
10A.    Yes.
11Q.    Now, Mr. Leonard asked you a whole bunch
12 of questions about the scratches.
13      Are you now conceding that that blue line
14 is in fact a scratch, sir?
15A.    I'm not conceding it.  I'm saying if it
16 is a scratch then there are certain issues that relate
17 to it.
18Q.    If it is a scratch that supports your
19 point about alignment, right?
20A.    Yes.
21Q.    But if it's not a scratch it doesn't
22 support your point about alignment, right, at least
23 that mark doesn't, right?
24MR. LEONARD:  Objection, Your Honor, lack of
25 foundation, vague.
26THE COURT:  Overruled.
27A.    My point as to the alignment doesn't rely
28 on that scratch, it's just a point.  You said it was a
 
    84
 1 scratch, you.
 2Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Well, you just went
 3 through a whole series of questions with Mr. Leonard
 4 about the scratch.  Remember that he called it a
 5 scratch.  If this is a scratch, if it is a scratch,
 6 right?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    Remember that?
 9A.    Oh, sure.
10Q.    Is it a scratch?
11A.    I don't think that it's a scratch.  It
12 appears there's more than one.
13Q.    If it's not a scratch, then everything
14 you just did with Mr. Leonard -- we can do this
15 outright.  Everything you did with Mr. Leonard about
16 the scratch being equal distance or not equal distance
17 from the frame?
18A.    No matter what, it is a parallel line to
19 the sprocket holes.  Therefore, it still proves the
20 point whether there's a scratch or not.
21Q.    You just don't know whether it's a
22 scratch or not?
23A.    No.
24Q.    Now, you talked about the strokes you had
25 which were caused by a fall?
26A.    That's correct.
27Q.    At a Toyota dealership?
28A.    That's correct.
 
    85
 1Q.    That also affected your vision, didn't
 2 it?
 3A.    It affected my -- Yes.
 4Q.    Blurriness in your right eye?
 5A.    Yes.  Actually, a slightly detached
 6 retina.
 7Q.    Now, you said that the -- I think you
 8 said something about if you saw 100 new photos of
 9 Mr. Simpson wearing the same shoes, that it wouldn't
10 make a difference to you in your analysis of the Scull
11 photo?
12A.    Doesn't change my mind.
13Q.    Doesn't change that you say you saw a
14 retouching mark, you say you saw a problem with the
15 length, and all those things we went through, right?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    On at least some of them you said there
18 could be an innocent explanation like exposures, this
19 could be a scratch as opposed to some other problem,
20 right?
21A.    Theoretically.
22Q.    Okay.
23      So if you see 100 other photos or 30
24 other photos of Mr. Simpson wearing this same exact
25 outfit including the same exact shoes, doesn't that
26 have some bearing on your opinion -- on your
27 conclusion that you draw from these observations that
28 somebody added shoes to the Scull photo?
 
    86
 1A.    I don't know that those are the same
 2 shoes.  I don't know.
 3Q.    Assume for a second they're the same
 4 shoes, okay.  Please assume they're the same shoes.
 5MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor --
 6THE COURT:  I --
 7MR. GELBLUM:  I want to ask a hypothetical to
 8 this.
 9MR. LEONARD:  There's no basis for that.
10THE COURT:  Overruled.
11MR. GELBLUM:  We'll tie it up.
12Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Assume they're the same
13 shoes, Mr. Groden, assume we've seen 30 other
14 photographs with those shoes.
15      Doesn't that affect your opinion that the
16 Scull photo -- somebody put new shoes on the Scull
17 photo?
18A.    It doesn't affect at all what I found in
19 the photographs; the anomalies are there.
20Q.    You're not answering my question.
21      I'm asking about the conclusion that you
22 draw from the anomalies.  Let's assume for a second
23 that you really saw everything that you say you saw,
24 retouching marks, blue lines, length issues, all that
25 stuff, let's say you saw all that,
26      If, however, you see 30 other photographs
27 of Mr. Simpson wearing those shoes, doesn't that cause
28 you to pause a little bit and say wait, maybe there's
 
    87
 1 some other explanation for those observations I saw,
 2 other than somebody putting new shoes on him, because
 3 here's 30 other pictures of him with those same shoes;
 4 yes or no?
 5A.    If I were able to authenticate the other
 6 photographs as genuine then it probably would.
 7Q.    Okay.  Thank you.
 8      Now, Mr. Leonard also referred to this --
 9 let me use the word "miraculous" discovery of those
10 pictures.
11      Do you remember that?
12A.    Yes.
13Q.    You're aware, sir, that one of those
14 photographs was published in November 1993?
15MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I'm going to object
16 to this.
17THE COURT:  Sustained.
18MR. LEONARD:  Thank you.
19Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  If you were --
20MR. LEONARD:  I move to strike, Your Honor.
21THE COURT:  Stricken.
22Q.    Did you do any searching of any
23 publications, sir, to see if there had been any
24 published photos of Mr. Simpson wearing Bruno Magli
25 shoes prior to the murders?
26A.    No.
27Q.    Wouldn't that make a difference to you if
28 there were, in fact, photos of him published prior to
 
    88
 1 any issue arising, what kind of shoes Mr. Simpson
 2 owned before these murders occurred and Bruno Magli
 3 footprints were found at the scene?
 4A.    Again, to answer your question as
 5 accurately as I can, it wouldn't change what I found
 6 in that photograph.
 7Q.    Again, Mr. Groden, we're talking about
 8 your conclusion that you have -- you're drawing from
 9 what you found in the photograph.
10      Just as you said, if you found that there
11 were other photographs, if they were found to be
12 authentic, of Mr. Simpson wearing those shoes, that
13 might indeed change your conclusion that you draw from
14 your observations about the shoes being added, if, in
15 fact, you found that a photograph had been published
16 prior to the murders --
17MR. LEONARD:  Objection.
18Q.    -- of Mr. Simpson wearing those Bruno
19 Magli shoes as he's seen wearing in the Scull
20 photograph, wouldn't that affect the conclusion you
21 draw from your observations?
22MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, improper,
23 hypothetical.
24THE COURT:  Overruled.
25A.    If the photographers -- if I could
26 confirm -- if I confirm that the photographs are
27 legitimate, and if they can be proven that those were,
28 in fact, Bruno Magli shoes in the photographs, I would
 
    89
 1 say that it would affect my -- my overall conclusion.
 2MR. GELBLUM:  No further questions.
 3THE WITNESS:  But --
 4MR. LEONARD:  Nothing, Your Honor.
 5THE COURT:  You may step down.
 6MR. GELBLUM:  Your Honor, I'd like to move into
 7 evidence the following exhibits:  1832, 1921, 1924,
 8 1930, 2071, 2072, 2076, 2284, 2286 through 2291, and
 9 2295 through 2304.
10     (The instrument herein described
11     as Photograph of defendant was
12     Marked for identification as
13     Defendant's Exhibit No. 1832.)
14     (The instrument herein described
15     as Photograph was marked for
16     identification as
17     Defendant's Exhibit No. 2072.)
18
19
20     (The instrument herein described
21     was received in evidence as
22     Defendant's Exhibit No. 1921)
23
24     (The instrument herein described
25     was received in evidence as
26     Defendant's Exhibit
27     No. 1924)
28
 
    90
 1     (The instrument herein described
 2     was received in evidence as
 3     Defendant's Exhibit No 1930)
 4
 5     (The instrument herein described
 6     was received in evidence as
 7     Defendant's Exhibit No 2282.)
 8
 9     (The instrument herein described
10     was received in evidence as
11     Defendant's Exhibit No 2284.)
12
13     (The instrument herein described
14     was received in evidence as
15     Defendant's Exhibit No 2286.)
16
17     (The instrument herein described
18     was received in evidence as
19     Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 2291.)
20     (The instrument herein described
21     was received in evidence as
22     Defendant's Exhibit No 2295.)
23
24     (The instrument herein described
25     was received in evidence as
26     Defendant's Exhibit No 2304.)
27
28
 
    91
 1    THE COURT:  I'm not going
 2     to receive those until --
 3    MR. GELBLUM:  Those last
 4     ones, okay.
 5  Also, there was one I
 6     used and I did not mark when we
 7     were here before, which is the
 8     article from the Globe Magazine.
 9    THE COURT:  I won't receive
10     that until you authenticate that.
11    MR. GELBLUM:  Mr. Groden
12     authenticated that's what he said
13     it was.  I didn't give it a
14     number, what the next -- not Globe
15     article.
16    MR. LEONARD:  We don't have
17     any objection to that.
18    THE COURT:  All right it's
19     received.
20    THE CLERK:  That will be
21     marked as 2305.
22    MR. GELBLUM:  Thank you.
23
24     (The instrument herein referred to
25     as Globe publication was marked
26     for identification as Plaintiffs'
27     Exhibit No. 2305.)
28
 
    92
 1     (The instrument herein described
 2     was received in evidence as
 3     Plaintiffs' Exhibit No 2305.)
 4MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, we move in 1832,
 5 1833, 1835, and 2282.
 6THE COURT:  Okay.  Received.
 7
 8     (The instrument previously marked
 9     as Defendants' Exhibit 1832 was
10     received in evidence.)
11
12     (The instrument previously marked
13     as Defendants' Exhibit 1833 was
14     received in evidence.)
15
16     (The instrument previously marked
17     as Defendants' Exhibit 1835 was
18     received in evidence.)
19
20     (The instrument previously marked
21     as Defendants' Exhibit 2282 was
22     received in evidence.)
23
24
25MR. LEONARD:  Thank you, Your Honor.
26THE COURT:  Next.
27MR. P. BAKER:  We're going to read the
28 deposition of Rothcar Rolf.
 
    93
 1MR. LEONARD:  We need to retrieve an exhibit
 2 from the back room.
 3I get to be the witness this time, Your Honor.
 4
 5     (Selected portions of the
 6     deposition of Rothcar Rolf were
 7     read by Defendants' Counsel,
 8     Mr. P. Baker reading the
 9     questions, and Mr. Leonard reading
10     the answers.)
11
12      ROKAHR ROLF,
13 was called as a witness on behalf of the Defendants,
14 was duly sworn, and testified as follows:
15
16MR. P. BAKER:  Page 5, line 7.
17      (Reading:)
18      Q.    Can you please state your
19       name for the record.
20      A.    My name is Rokahr,
21       R-o-k-a-h-r, my last name.  middle
22       initial.  First name is Rolf, R-o-l-f.
23      Q.    Mr. Rokahr, we're taking
24       this deposition in your home today?
25      A.    That's correct.
26      Q.    And it's my understanding
27       that you are going to be moving fairly
28       soon?
 
    94
 1      A.    I'll be moving in what, two
 2       days.
 3      Q.    Out of the Los Angeles
 4       area?
 5      A.    Yes.  I will be living up
 6       in the Bay area.
 7MR. P. BAKER:   Page 11, line 14.
 8    (Reading:)
 9      Q.    As of June of 1994, by whom
10       were you employed?
11      A.    LAPD.
12      Q.    And in what capacity?
13      A.    As a photographer.
14      Q.    And were you called to the
15       O.J. Simpson, or 875 South Bundy crime
16       scene?
17      A.    Yes, I was.
18      Q.    About what time?
19      A.    I would have to look at
20       some paperwork to see what time the call
21       came in.  But I know I arrived sometime
22       after -- or I left the office sometime
23       after 2 o'clock in the morning.
24       MR. P. BAKER:  Page 15, line 6.
25    (Reading:)
26
27      Q.    Now, can you give me your
28       best estimate as to what time you
 
    95
 1       arrived at 875 South Bundy?
 2      A.    Well, I would say as an
 3       estimate, considering the distance,
 4       considering the driving location, which
 5       is nothing but freeway all the way out
 6       to West L.A., I would say about 15
 7       minutes after receiving the call.
 8      Q.    If the call was received at
 9       2:48, that would be a little after 3
10       o'clock?
11      A.    I would say so.
12      Q.    Do you remember where you
13       parked when you got there?
14      A.    I parked right on the
15       corner of -- I'm not sure what it is --
16       possibly Dorothy and Bundy.
17      Q.    Now, did you begin taking
18       pictures at some point?
19      A.    Thereafter, after arriving
20       and after talking to some people, trying
21       to find out where the log-on man is,
22       after talking to the log-on man, I
23       started taking photographs.
24      Q.    Now, prior to the time you
25       took photographs, were you given a
26       walk-through of the crime scene?
27      A.    Yeah, I was.
28      Q.    Do you remember who gave
 
    96
 1       you the walk-through?
 2      A.    I don't know the officer's
 3       name.
 4      Q.    Was it a uniformed officer
 5       or a plain-clothes officer?
 6      A.    It was a uniformed officer.
 7      Q.    Describe where that officer
 8       took you.
 9      A.    He took me through the back
10       door, where the cars are parked, up a
11       flight of stairs, coming through the
12       kitchen and then part of the living
13       room, to the outside of the house, which
14       at this point is the front door, now,
15       and he walked me about three, four feet
16       out onto the sidewalk in front of the
17       front door.
18      Usually we don't go any farther
19       than that because of possible evidence
20       laying there.
21      Q.    Are you saying that you
22       went out the front door but you went six
23       or seven feet?
24      A.    I'm sorry?
25      Q.    You went out the front door
26       about six or seven feet, or did you go
27       all the way to the --
28      A.    Might have been four or
 
    97
 1       five.  I never hit the staircase.
 2      Q.    You did not go down any
 3       stairs?
 4      A.    No.
 5      Q.    Where did you go from
 6       there?
 7      A.    From there, I went back
 8       and -- basically waiting for whoever the
 9       investigating detective would be, which
10       turned out to be Mark Fuhrman, for him
11       to arrive.  And since whoever was going
12       to be the detective in charge, he had no
13       idea where I would be, so I decided I'd
14       better go up front and find him there.
15      Q.    At some point, did
16       Detective Fuhrman arrive?
17      A.    He arrived shortly
18       thereafter.
19      Q.    Shortly after what?
20      A.    After I left the location,
21       going back the same way I came in, and I
22       waited by my car for a while.
23      Q.    What are overall shots?
24      A.    Overall shots consist of
25       primarily street signs, to give us a
26       location as to what the street is, then
27       a view up and down the street from both
28       directions.
 
    98
 1      Q.    And did you take such
 2       pictures at Bundy?
 3      A.    Yes, I did.
 4      Q.    What did you take those
 5       pictures in relation to Detective
 6       Fuhrman arriving before or after?
 7      A.    I would say shortly before
 8       he arrived.
 9MR. P. BAKER:  Page 18, skipping to line 8.
10      (Reading:)
11      Q.    Approximately how long did
12       it take you to do the overall shots?
13      A.    I'm guessing at this point.
14       I would say maybe 15, 20 minutes.
15      Q.    How long did you think it
16       took you for the walk-through?
17      A.    I would say probably the
18       same amount of time.
19      Q.    Ten or 15 minutes?
20      A.    Ten or 15 minutes.
21      Q.    Now, this is a trial
22       exhibit.  I don't think we marked it
23       yet, because we have to return it to the
24       court.  Now, for the record, it is the
25       criminal exhibits 1366, which is the
26       laying on the screen, which is civil 20.
27    Let me check.
28    2051 (referring to Exhibit
 
    99
 1       2051) for -- while reading this.
 2    Let me show you what was
 3       criminal trial Exhibit 1366.
 4      A.    Okay.
 5      Q.    Do you recognize that?
 6      A.    I recognize this as my
 7       first roll of film taken that morning.
 8      Q.    That's what's called a
 9       contact print?
10      A.    No, it is not.
11      Q.    What would you call it?
12      A.    This is a slide enlargement
13       of a contact.  The contact one would be
14       24 by 36 millimeters.
15      Q.    Now, the pictures that are
16       depicted on that board, are they the
17       same order in which they were taken?
18      A.    Yes, they are.
19      Q.    How can you tell that?
20      A.    By the numbering system
21       that's built into the camera.  Excuse
22       me.  Each photograph gets a number.
23       MR. P. BAKER:  Page 20, line 23.
24    (Reading:)
25      Q.    Now, why don't you put that
26       down to your side so we can get a
27       good -- I'm going to look -- he asked
28       him to look at the contact sheet.
 
   100
 1      Can you tell us which of the
 2       shots are the overall shots?
 3      A.    It would be the very first
 4       one in the upper left-hand corner.
 5       Then, of course, come the street signs,
 6       which give us the street location.
 7    What we try to do is be as
 8       precise as we can be by getting the
 9       street numbers, which I have here, 900
10       South Bundy, 1200 West Dorothy.  So this
11       determines and tell us where the
12       location is.
13      And then, I have several shots.
14       The first one -- first one being, I
15       believe, looking east from that corner.
16       Then the next one is looking north at an
17       angle.
18      Q.    I don't need you to go over
19       each one individually.
20      A.    Okay.
21      Q.    Can you tell me how many
22       photographs on that board are overall
23       shots?
24      A.    Including the street scene,
25       so we've got two, four, five, eight,
26       nine -- there are nine.
27      Q.    Now, about how long did it
28       take you to shoot those nine shots?
 
   101
 1      A.    I would say maybe five
 2       minutes, ten minutes, because it
 3       requires some walking through the
 4       outside scene.
 5      Q.    Now, the photographs after
 6       the first nine shots, what do those
 7       represent?
 8      A.    They're looking at the
 9       location from -- from the alley, looking
10       at the back of the house from the alley.
11       And there are five of those.
12      Q.    What do the pictures after
13       that -- we're up to 14, now, I think?
14      A.    The first one is what looks
15       like a Bronco to me, a vehicle parked in
16       front of the garage door.
17      Q.    Now, which numbered
18       photograph are you talking about, using
19       the contact numbers?
20      A.    It is -- is that -- can you
21       turn that around a little bit so I can
22       see it?
23      Oh, excuse me.  Now, which number
24       it is.
25      MR. GELBLUM:  Line 14.
26      A.    Using the contact numbers,
27       numbers 15 or 15 A.
28      Q.    Can you turn that around a
 
   102
 1       little bit so I can see it?
 2      A.    This one here (indicating).
 3      Q.    Is that a vehicle in the
 4       back of 875 South Bundy?
 5      A.    That's a vehicle sitting
 6       outside of the garage or outside the
 7       overhang.
 8      Q.    Could that be a jeep?
 9      A.    It could be a jeep; it
10       could be a Bronco, something.
11      Q.    What are the photographs
12       after that one?
13      A.    After that one is a total
14       overview of where this vehicle is
15       located an overview of the alley looking
16       north from the location.  Then a view of
17       the -- looking east from my location --
18       of the second garage door involved.
19       Then a close-up of that location.  Then
20       a view looking slightly southeast of
21       that location, again showing the same
22       vehicle in there.
23      Q.    Which picture are you up to
24       now?
25      A.    Using the contact numbers,
26       14.
27      Q.    Now, I want you to skip
28       ahead to the last two pictures on the
 
   103
 1       roll.
 2    Do you have that in mind?
 3      A.    Yes, I do.
 4      Q.    Tell me how long it took
 5       you to take all the pictures up to, but
 6       not including, those last two.  Your
 7       best estimate.
 8      A.    I'm not sure.  If you were
 9       to say 30 minutes, I would say that's
10       right.  If you were to say 45 minutes, I
11       would say that's right.  It's very
12       difficult for me to say.
13      Q.    Now, up until the time
14       until the last two pictures were taken,
15       had Mark Fuhrman arrived?
16      A.    He had arrived prior to
17       those two pictures being taken.
18      Q.    How long before those two
19       pictures taken did he arrive?
20      A.    Again, I wouldn't know,
21       because I saw him walk from his car over
22       to the scene, at which time I had no
23       more interest in him or who he was.
24      Q.    When you saw him walking
25       from his car to the scene, did you
26       recognize him?
27      A.    Close up, I recognized him,
28       because I had worked with him before.
 
   104
 1      Q.    You have any knowledge at
 2       that point as to his role in the
 3       investigation?
 4      A.    No.  I just knew he was an
 5       investigator.
 6      Q.    When you saw him walk in,
 7       you said you had no reason to pay
 8       attention to him after that.  What did
 9       you mean by that?
10      A.    Well, there was quite a bit
11       of brass out on the street corner, LAPD
12       brass.  So if somebody had said he was a
13       captain, I would have said yes.  I
14       really had no idea who he was.
15      Q.    At some point, did you
16       become aware he was in charge of the
17       investigation?
18      A.    Yes.
19MR. P. BAKER:  Turning to page 25, your answer
20 on line 6.
21MR. LEONARD:  (Reading:)
22      A.    Shortly before those last
23       two pictures were taken.
24      Q.    How did you discover what
25       his role was?
26      A.    He said hello to me; I'm
27       Detective Fuhrman.
28    I said I know, because by
 
   105
 1       this time, I recognized him.
 2    And he said, let me show
 3       you what we have in back here.
 4      Q.    How did you know he was in
 5       charge of the investigation?
 6      A.    Well, usually the directing
 7       investigator is the one who tells me
 8       what pictures to take.
 9      Q.    Now, when you saw him
10       arrive, can you tell us where you were
11       in your sequence of the first 34
12       pictures or so?
13      A.    Well, the last picture
14       before the two at the scene was looking
15       west toward the scene from the street.
16      Q.    Which contact number is
17       that?
18      A.    That's contact number 33.
19      Q.    So is what you are saying,
20       33 is around the time when you were
21       taking -- 33 is around the time Mark
22       Fuhrman arrived?
23      Tell us what you meant by 33 in
24       relationship to Mark Fuhrman.
25      A.    33 is the last pictures I
26       took before Mark Fuhrman said to me,
27       let's go back -- let's go in back of the
28       house.
 
   106
 1      Q.    You -- had you seen him
 2       arrive prior to that time that you took
 3       33?
 4      A.    Yes, I had.
 5      Q.    Approximately where in the
 6       sequence?
 7    Give me your best estimate
 8       as where you recall him arriving, which
 9       pictures were you taking?
10      A.    I was still doing the
11       overall on the outside of the house.  I
12       saw him getting out of his vehicle, not
13       knowing who he is, just somebody
14       arriving.
15    That's about as clear as I
16       am on that.
17      Q.    Now, I want to try and get,
18       as best we can, a time estimate of what
19       happened.
20      You indicated that you arrived a
21       little after 3 o'clock?
22      A.    Yes.
23      Q.    And it took you about 10,
24       15 minutes to get logged in?
25      A.    That's correct.
26      Q.    We're up to about roughly
27       3:20?
28      A.    That could be the time.
 
   107
 1      Q.    And then you estimated the
 2       overall shots 25 minutes to 30 minutes
 3       to 45 minutes?
 4      A.    For all of these, yes.
 5      Q.    We're up to 3:50 or 4:05,
 6       roughly.  Does that take us up to the
 7       time you took the last two shots?
 8      A.    No.  That takes us to
 9       before that time.
10      Q.    Okay.
11    Then what time does that
12       take us up to.  Or what pictures are we
13       up to now?
14      A.    I would say any one of the
15       pictures from 26 contact numbers to 33.
16      MR. P. BAKER:  Going to line 24.
17      Q.    Now, tell me what Mark
18       Fuhrman said to you prior to the time
19       that you took those last two pictures on
20       that roll.
21MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.  Calls for hearsay.
22THE COURT:  Sustained.
23MR. LEONARD:  Can the witness -- may I make an
24 argument, Your Honor, as counsel?
25      I believe that goes to his subsequent
26 conduct, Your Honor.
27THE COURT:  I'll sustain the objection.
28MR. P. BAKER:  Going to line 28.
 
   108
 1
 2    (Reading:)
 3
 4      Q.    And after he said that to
 5       you, what did you do?
 6Going to line 11 -- I'm sorry -- page 28.  Your
 7 answer at line 12?
 8      A.    Well, I finish my outdoor
 9       overall shots with number 33, which is
10       looking westbound from the outside of
11       the house.  That was the last one.  And
12       then him and I walked to the back of the
13       house, which takes you all the way up
14       to -- I believe it's Dorothy.  Is that
15       the first street?  I think it's Dorothy.
16      Q.    And you can go ahead and
17       put that board down.
18    To get up to where those
19       last two pictures were taken on that
20       roll, you -- we had worked our way up to
21       3:50, to 4:05.  Is that the range we're
22       talking about up to the point where you
23       took the last two?
24      A.    I would say so.
25MR. GELBLUM:  Finish the answer.
26MR. LEONARD:  We're not in the habit of looking
27 at the time -- at which time we take a picture.
28
 
   109
 1      Q.    Was there any kind of
 2       lengthy delay between the first 30
 3       pictures and those last two?
 4      A.    No, not any -- not any
 5       extra waiting period or delay.  It was
 6       just a matter of my overall shot.
 7      Q.    Describe to me the last
 8       pictures, who said what to who.  This
 9       was taken.  Who said what to who?
10      A.    Well, Mark --
11MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.
12MR. LEONARD:  Same admission.
13THE COURT:  With regards to the photographs
14 offered.
15MR. LEONARD:  Thank you.
16      Read the question.
17      Q.    Describe to me the setup as
18       to those last two pictures:  Who said
19       what to who when those pictures were
20       taken, what directions were given.
21      A.    Mark Fuhrman said, we have
22       something that looks like a cap and a
23       glove back here.
24    And I said yes, I know,
25       because these had been pointed out to me
26       before by whoever the police officer was
27       that took me in back of the house.  And
28       I said to him that I wanted him to point
 
   110
 1       at both items because it was very dark
 2       out there.
 3      Q.    When you say very dark, it
 4       was still nightime, was it not?
 5      A.    It was still nightime.
 6MR. P. BAKER:  Page 78, line 17.
 7MR. LEONARD:  I'm sorry?
 8MR. P. BAKER:  Page 78.
 9MR. LEONARD:  Okay.
10MR. P. BAKER:  (Reading:)
11
12      Q.    Now, can you tell the
13       difference between a photograph taken an
14       hour before sun rises and an hour after
15       sunrise?
16      A.    Yes, I usually can.
17      Q.    Can you look at, again
18       quickly, the two last pictures on 1366,
19       civil 251, trial exhibit and tell us,
20       was it still dark when those photographs
21       were taken?
22      A.    The last two on here?
23      Q.    Yes.
24      A.    Both of them, it was still
25       dark.
26      Q.    Was the sun up at all?
27      A.    No.
28      Q.    Now, do you --
 
   111
 1      A.    I use a flash with every
 2       photo I take, even if the sun shines.
 3      Q.    Your statement that those
 4       two pictures were taken while it was
 5       still dark, is that based on your
 6       memory?
 7      A.    Not only my memory, but
 8       also looking at photographs, it's
 9       extremely well exposed picture, if I
10       might use that kind of terminology,
11       which you will get from the flash
12       picture taken from a close distance.
13      Q.    How long have you been a
14       professional photographer?
15      A.    Probably in excess of 40
16       years.
17
18      Q.    Do you have an opinion, as
19       a professional photographer, looking at
20       the last two pictures on that roll,
21       1366, whether they were taken at
22       nighttime?
23      A.    I would say definitely they
24       were.
25      Q.    Thank you.
26MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, at this point, we
27 would like to publish, just pass the board.
28THE COURT:  Okay.
 
   112
 1MR. LEONARD:  Thank you.
 2      I guess I can just hold it up, if that's
 3 acceptable.
 4      Thank you.
 5MR. GELBLUM:  That was it for their reading.
 6THE COURT:  Okay.
 7MR. GELBLUM:  On page 9, line 12:
 8    (Reading:)
 9
10      Q.    Now, Mr. Rokahr, let me ask
11       you some questions about medication.
12       MR. GELBLUM:  This is Mr. Blasier asking
13 questions.
14
15    (Reading:)
16
17      Q.    Are you on some medication
18       today?
19      A.    About 13 different ones.
20      Q.    Can you list those
21       medications for me?
22      A.    My daughter can.  We have
23       them written down.
24      Q.    Okay.
25    Can your daughter provide a
26       list?  Will you ask her to provide us
27       with a list of the medication you're
28       taking?
 
   113
 1      A.    Yes, we can.
 2      Q.    Are any of the medications
 3       you're taking today affecting you
 4       mentally in any way that you're aware
 5       of?
 6      A.    My daughter probably has
 7       more of an idea as to what they do to
 8       me, because she said, I'll give you your
 9       pills after this is finished.
10    Maybe it did something to
11       me.  I'm not sure.
12      Q.    Do you remember what day it
13       is today?
14      A.    I know it's a Monday, but I
15       don't know the date.
16      Q.    Okay.
17       MR. GELBLUM:  I'd like to go a little
18 out of sequence, jump ahead to the end, where he talks
19 about the medications.
20      This is page 71, line 19.  And it is now
21 Mr. Medvene asking the questions.
22
23    (Reading:)
24
25      Q.    Let me ask you this and
26       then we'll be finished, I have to do
27       this for the record and not for
28       embarrassing you in any way.
 
   114
 1      You have certain health problems?
 2      A.    Yes, I do.
 3      Q.    Because of those problems
 4       you have to take certain --
 5      A.    Medication?
 6      Q.    Yes, sir.
 7      A.    Yes, I do.
 8      Q.    And some of them you take
 9       on a daily basis?
10      A.    Some I take on an hourly
11       basis.
12      Q.    I wonder if we go through
13       this, with Mr. Blasier's permission,
14       just to take some stress off Mr. Rokahr,
15       that we can have read in the medication
16       that the witness takes and the attorneys
17       agree that that can be done.
18MR. GELBLUM:  And down at the bottom of 73,
19 line 10 -- page 73, line 10, if would you read the
20 name and the quantity.
21      And then the witness's daughter read into
22 the record the medications.
23      A.    Okay.
24    Adapin.  He takes --
25MR. P. BAKER:  Objection.  This is irrelevant.
26 It says earlier that he didn't take the medications.
27THE COURT:  Overruled.  He may read it in.
28MR. LEONARD:
 
   115
 1    (Reading:)
 2
 3      A.    Adapin.  He takes 1
 4       milligram tablet as needed.  Takes --
 5       you're going to embarrass me here, now.
 6    Digoxin, .25 milligram.
 7    He takes Ecotrin.
 8    Lacix -- I'm sorry.
 9    Ecotrin is 325 milligram.
10    Lacix is 40 milligram.
11    Mevacor is 10 milligram.
12    Micronase is 5 milligram,
13    Motrin is 600 milligram.
14    Potassium is 10 milligram.
15    Prozac is a 20 milligram.
16    Tegretol is 200 milligram.
17    Testaval (phonetic) is a 10
18       milligram.
19    And MS Contin is a 15
20       milligram.
21       MR. GELBLUM:  Go ahead.  Read the
22 next --
23      A.    I take these at various
24       times of the day.
25      Q.    So the rest that your
26       daughter read, it's your memory that
27       these are the medications you take at
28       various time of the day?
 
   116
 1      A.    I know I take those and I
 2       take them at various times of day.
 3      Q.    Have you been taking those
 4       medications, taking them at various
 5       times of day for some period of time?
 6      A.    Yes, I have.
 7      Q.    For approximately how long
 8       a period of time?
 9      A.    It depends what the
10       medication is for.  I have something
11       called what's the nerve pain.
12       MR. GELBLUM:  The daughter says
13 neuralgia.
14      MR. LEONARD:(Reading:)
15      A.    Which is a neck pain if
16       you've ever had shingles, it may come
17       back.  It does come back with an extreme
18       fury.  I've had this over a year and a
19       half now on the right side of my body.
20       It becomes extremely painful.  According
21       to various M.D.s, there's no known cure
22       for it.  The only thing they have is to
23       make the pain a little less painful.  I
24       guess you might say it's not a very good
25       cure.
26      Q.    Unfortunately, there is a
27       need and has been a need for some period
28       of time to take certain pain
 
   117
 1       medications?
 2      A.    That is correct.
 3MR. GELBLUM:  Now, Mr. Leonard, can we go back
 4 up, please, to page 33, line 8.
 5      Q.    As I understand it, you
 6       finished what you describe as the
 7       overall sometime around 4 o'clock a.m.;
 8       is that correct?
 9      A.    Are we talking about the
10       overall on Bundy or Rockingham?
11      Q.    Bundy.
12      A.    Yes, I would say so.
13      Q.    And did Detective Phillips
14       then ask you to wait before you took any
15       more pictures until Detective Fuhrman
16       arrived or came back?
17
18       MR. GELBLUM:  We jump to 22 for the
19 answer.
20MR. P. BAKER:  Hearsay.
21MR. GELBLUM:  Subsequent conduct, Your Honor.
22      Just like they explained to us what they
23 took.
24THE COURT:  Okay.
25MR. LEONARD:  (Reading:)
26      A.    I think that question
27       came -- let me back up when I do a crime
28       scene, having done as many --
 
   118
 1MR. GELBLUM:  Mr. Leonard, can you slow down?
 2MR. LEONARD:  (Reading:)
 3
 4      A.    When I do a crime scene,
 5       having done as many as I've done, I
 6       usually go ahead and do my overall after
 7       I know where the actual place is where
 8       we have a body.
 9    So I started doing my
10       overall, and Detective Phillips, at one
11       point, said, why don't you wait until --
12       I think it was Fuhrman -- that he said
13       until Fuhrman arrives.
14       MR. GELBLUM:  Okay.  Down to line 9.
15    (Reading:)
16
17      Q.    Do you remember speaking to
18       Peter Neufeld, one of Mr. Simpson's
19       attorneys, and him taking a statement
20       from you?
21      A.    I think I spoke to him more
22       than once.  I know I spoke to him in my
23       CO office at LAPD.
24      Q.    Was that on, if you can
25       remember, September 14, September 4?
26      A.    Sorry, I don't know what
27       the date was.
28MR. BAKER:  I'll object.  This is outside the
 
   119
 1 scope.
 2MR. GELBLUM:  This has to do when he took the
 3 pictures.  That's exactly what the discussion with
 4 Neufeld was about.
 5MR. BAKER:  Doesn't matter.  He talked about
 6 the picture, talked --
 7THE COURT:  Approach the bench.
 8
 9
10     (The following proceedings were
11     held at the bench, with the
12     reporter.)
13
14THE COURT:  What is the question?
15MR. GELBLUM:  The question is about his
16 speaking --
17THE COURT:  What is the question?
18MR. GELBLUM:  Do you remember speaking to
19 Mr. Neufeld -- well the question objection was that on
20 September 4.
21THE COURT:  And what was the answer?
22MR. GELBLUM:  I don't know what the date was.
23THE COURT:  What was the preceding question?
24MR. GELBLUM:  Do you remember speaking to Peter
25 Neufeld, one of Mr. Simpson's attorneys, and him
26 taking a statement from you.
27      The answer was, I think I spoke to him
28 once.  I know I spoke to him in my VCO office at LAPD.
 
   120
 1THE COURT:  What's the relevance of that?
 2MR. GELBLUM:  The relevance is, we get to the
 3 other page, he told Mr. Neufeld something different
 4 about sequence of taking the pictures that he
 5 testified to in the reading that they just did
 6 entirely different.  It's a prior inconsistent
 7 statement.
 8THE COURT:  Has he testified to that in his
 9 deposition?
10MR. GELBLUM:  In his deposition, yes.
11THE COURT:  What did he say?
12MR. GELBLUM:  Is it correct that you told
13 Mr. Neufeld -- page 33 -- that you told Mr. Neufeld,
14 that, after you finished the overall, that Detective
15 Phillips said in effect, will you please wait until
16 Fuhrman arrives.
17      The answer:  I'm not sure the time.  I
18 thought the question was that he asked me to hold my
19 photographs at a point shortly after arriving, and we
20 don't remember they may be reached in from the
21 statement from Neufeld.
22THE COURT:  Which is?
23MR. GELBLUM:  Then what's next thing that
24 happened when you finished your overall?  You said
25 Phillips said something to you.
26      And then you're quoted as saying who
27 Phillips mentioned that.  I don't know whether he used
28 Fuhrman's name.  But he says, why don't you wait now
 
   121
 1 until, I think he said Fuhrman arrives.
 2THE COURT:  Okay.
 3MR. BAKER:  Then he goes on:  You don't recall
 4 one way or the other if you said that to Mr. Neufeld?
 5      I really don't.
 6      And he has no recollection.  And it goes
 7 on.
 8MR. GELBLUM:  If he said -- if you said that to
 9 Mr. Neufeld point in time closer to the occurrence
10 than now, do you believe your recollection would be
11 better at this time?
12Yes, I do.
13MR. BAKER:  I don't know if any recollection
14 would be better.  None of this imposed a very -- scene
15 to you not knowing what would be coming on.  He reads
16 part of it.  He says I don't know if my memory would
17 be any better.
18This is all irrelevant.
19MR. GELBLUM:  It has exactly to do with the
20 sequence he did at the time the picture was taken,
21 which is the only subject -- the only purpose for this
22 witness, was to establish when this photograph was
23 taken.  And Mr. Neufeld, on direct examination --
24THE COURT:  Overruled.
25
26    (The following proceedings were
27     held in open court, in the
28     presence of the jury.)
 
   122
 1
 2MR. GELBLUM:  Back where we were at page 34,
 3 line 14.
 4      Q.    Was that on, if you can
 5       remember, September 4?
 6      A.    I'm sorry; I don't know
 7       what the date was.
 8      Q.    Do you remember at the
 9       trial there were certain questions asked
10       you about your meeting with Mr. Neufeld?
11      A.    I remember the question
12       was, do you remember me asking your
13       permission to put this on audio.  And I
14       said that's fine.
15      Q.    On the occasion that was
16       being talked about and when Mr. Neufeld
17       asked your permission to put the
18       interview on audio, when was that
19       conversation, if you can remember?
20      A.    I don't know.  It may have
21       been in the very beginning; it may have
22       been five or ten minutes into it.
23      Q.    Well, what I'm asking is,
24       when you spoke to Mr. Neufeld and he
25       wanted to record his conversation with
26       you, when was that meeting?
27      A.    You're asking me for the
28       date and/or day.  I have no idea.  But
 
   123
 1       you probably have that on record
 2       somewhere.
 3      Q.    Was that meeting
 4       approximately September 4 of 1995, to
 5       the best of your recollection?
 6      A.    It would -- could have
 7       been, yes.
 8      Q.    Other than that meeting
 9       with Mr. Neufeld on September 4, did you
10       have any other meetings with him,
11       private meetings, just you and him or
12       other members of Mr. Simpson's group?
13      A.    I think he came out to the
14       hallway in the courthouse, where I spoke
15       to two of his attorneys, number 1
16       attorney -- trying to think of his name.
17
18MR. BAKER:  Object to the -- to the first phase
19 of that.
20THE COURT:  Overruled.
21MR. GELBLUM:  Page 38, line 6.  (Reading:)
22
23      Q.    Now, isn't it correct that
24       you told Mr. Neufeld that it was after
25       you finished the overall, that Detective
26       Phillips said, in effect, that you
27       please wait until Fuhrman arrives?
28      A.    I'm not sure of the time
 
   124
 1       frame.  I thought that this question was
 2       that he asked me to hold my photographs
 3       at a point shortly after arriving.
 4MR. GELBLUM:  Go ahead, continue at line 15.
 5      A.    I really don't remember.
 6      Q.    And I'll just read you this
 7       again to see if it refreshes you.  I'm
 8       reading from page 2 of the transcript
 9       that we were supplied.
10    Peter Neufeld:  And then
11       what's the next thing that happened when
12       you finished your overalls?  You said
13       something -- you said Phillips said
14       something to you and then you're quoted
15       as saying, hum, Phillips mentioned
16       that -- I don't know whether he used
17       Fuhrman's name, but he says why don't
18       you wait now until I think he said
19       Fuhrman arrives.
20    Do you recall one way or
21       another if you said that to Mr. Neufeld?
22
23      A.    I really don't.
24      Q.    And if you said that to
25       Mr. Neufeld in 1995, at a closer time to
26       the occurrence than now, would you
27       believe your recollection would more
28       likely be correct at that time?
 
   125
 1      A.    Yes, I do.  I don't know if
 2       my recollection would have been better
 3       at some time in '95.  None of this
 4       imposed a very important scene to me,
 5       not knowing what would be coming --
 6       coming up after I take those
 7       photographs.
 8      Q.    You weren't paying that
 9       much attention to it at the tame?
10      A.    Not really.
11      Q.    Or that much attention to
12       the sequence?
13      A.    The only time I pay
14       attention to time is when I leave the
15       scene.
16      Q.    Okay.  Over to page 43,
17       line 1.  Now, let me read you one
18       other -- one other question and answer
19       with Mr. Neufeld again to refresh your
20       recollection on this point.
21      I read to you from page 4.
22      Peter Neufeld, about 6 lines
23       down, quote, and then after you shot the
24       overalls, just after you finished
25       shooting them, Detective Phillips said
26       to you, quote, wait till Fuhrman
27       arrives, unquote, or, quote, wait until
28       Fuhrman comes back, unquote, you're not
 
   126
 1       sure which words he used.
 2      Mr. Rokahr this is on the
 3       transcript that Mr. Medvene is reading
 4       from Mr. Neufeld conversation Mr. Rokahr
 5       says some were, yeah.
 6      Mr. Neufeld:  So that is about
 7       4 a.m. that Phillips is telling you
 8       that, is that right, within about 10 or
 9       15 minutes?
10      Mr. Rokahr says, I would say so.
11      Back to the deposition itself.
12      Q.    Do you remember in
13       substance being asked those questions by
14       Mr. Neufeld and giving those answers?
15      A.    I really don't -- I really
16       don't remember what Mr. Neufeld asked
17       me.
18      Q.    Do you remember, if you
19       were asked those questions and gave
20       those answers, would those have been, to
21       the best of your knowledge, correct
22       answers?
23      MR. GELBLUM:  And the answer is
24       on the next page, line 1.
25      A.    I tend to be extremely
26       honest, so that would have been the best
27       of my recollection at least at that
28       point.
 
   127
 1      MR. GELBLUM:  Down to page 45,
 2       please, line 14.
 3      Q.    Do you remember going to
 4       your car after your conversation with
 5       Detective Phillips and waiting there at
 6       the car for a period of time until
 7       Detective Fuhrman arrived?
 8      A.    I remember going to my car
 9       and waiting.  I could not tell you how
10       long or for that matter at what time
11       that occurred rather.  It was -- when I
12       say what time it occurred, whether that
13       was five minutes before he arrived, a
14       half an hour before he arrived, um, I'm
15       not sure.
16      Q.    Down to the page 46, line
17       14.  Let me, for purposes of refreshing
18       you, refer to page 44,077 of the
19       criminal trial transcript at line 13.
20    Question by Mr. Darden:
21       After you took the overall photograph,
22       did you wait in your car for detectives?
23    Answer at lines 15 and 16:
24       I waited.  Not sure whether it was
25       sitting in my car or just leaning up
26       against it.
27    Do you remember being asked
28       that question by Mr. Darden and giving
 
   128
 1       that answer?
 2      A.    I remember a question like
 3       that.
 4      Q.    Was that an accurate
 5       answer, to the best of your knowledge?
 6      A.    It is an accurate answer,
 7       yes.
 8      Q.    And what you're referring
 9       to there -- what you were -- I'm sorry.
10    And what you were referring
11       to there was sitting in your car or
12       leaning up against it waiting for
13       Mr. Fuhrman to arrive or Detective
14       Fuhrman to arrive; is that correct?
15      A.    That is correct, waiting
16       for someone to arrive who would give me
17       directions.
18      Q.    Okay.  Down to page 48,
19       line 3.
20    But at any rate, at some
21       time before you took pictures 34 and 35
22       is when Detective Phillips asked you to
23       wait for Detective Fuhrman, you went
24       over to the car and you waited for some
25       period of time?
26      A.    Yes.
27      Q.    And at the car, do you
28       remember just sitting in the car to
 
   129
 1       relax for a few minutes?
 2      A.    I'm not sure whether I was
 3       sitting in the car or just leaning up
 4       against it for a few minutes.
 5      Q.    You weren't paying
 6       attention to exactly how much time or
 7       how long you were in the car or by the
 8       car, were you?
 9      A.    No, I was not.
10      Q.    In fact, at one time at the
11       trial, in answer to Mr. Neufeld's
12       questions, you thought the time period
13       would have been an hour or so that you
14       were waiting; isn't that true?
15      A.    It could have been for all
16       I know at this point.
17      Q.    It was some period of time
18       and you just don't recall at this stage
19       how long it was; is that it?
20      A.    I really don't know.  Yes,
21       that's correct.
22      Q.    Okay.  Page 51, line 8.
23    If you would take a look
24       at, or possibly you'll remember, and if
25       not, I'll place in front of you pages 34
26       and 35.
27      A.    I would not remember.
28      Q.    Let me place that in front
 
   130
 1       of you.  That's what's on the screen up
 2       there.  Line 14, sir.
 3      A.    Are we talking about Kodak
 4       numbers?
 5      Q.    Yes, sir.
 6      A.    Okay, I do remember now,
 7       yes.
 8      Q.    There appears to be someone
 9       pointing at something.
10    Who is that pointing?
11      A.    That's Mark Fuhrman.
12      Q.    What's he pointing at?
13      A.    He's pointing at, I think,
14       the cap and/or the glove or both of them
15       because they're in very close proximity
16       to each other.
17      Q.    How did he come to be
18       pointing at them, if you know?
19      A.    I asked him to.
20      Q.    Page 52, line 14.
21    Is it fair to say,
22       Mr. Rokahr, that when Mr. Neufeld
23       interviewed you in what we think was
24       September of 1995, that at that time you
25       hadn't remembered that you had sat in
26       your car for a period of time before
27       seeing Mr. Fuhrman?
28      A.    I don't know if I stayed in
 
   131
 1       my car or just leaned up against it
 2       outside.
 3      Q.    What I was asking was did
 4       you forget that initially when you spoke
 5       to Mr. Neufeld in September?
 6      A.    No, I don't.
 7      Q.    Do you know whether or not
 8       you forgot that when you were first
 9       talking to Mr. Neufeld in September?
10      A.    I would say so, because
11       none of it seemed to be very important
12       at that point.
13      Q.    I understand.
14    And on reflection, after it
15       became more important, you realized that
16       you had first spoken to Mr. Neufeld that
17       there was -- there was a period of time
18       that you were in your car -- by your car
19       or in your car prior to seeing
20       Mr. Fuhrman; is that correct?
21MR. P. BAKER:  Leading and vague.
22THE COURT:  Overruled.
23      A.    Yeah, I would say so.
24MR. GELBLUM:  Page 54, line 18.
25      Q.    Am I to understand you
26       started your counter at -- was it 0000?
27      A.    In the very beginning, yes,
28       and I do not change if I leave one scene
 
   132
 1       and go to the next.
 2      Q.    The counter numbers would
 3       be, then, regardless of the scene, they
 4       would be the order in which you took the
 5       pictures?
 6      A.    That is correct.
 7      MR. GELBLUM:  Page 57, line 16,
 8       Mr. Blasier.  I'm just going to place
 9       before the witness what you and I looked
10       at before.
11    Starts with frame number 00
12       and I'm going to take them up to 118 and
13       119 and ask where these were taken and
14       ask where 120 was taken when you're
15       ready, Mr. Rokahr, just let me know, and
16       come over with the pictures.
17      A.    Okay.
18      Q.    The picture I'm pointing to
19       that has the counter 000000, what is
20       that?
21      A.    That would be the very
22       first exposure on that particular roll
23       of film after I arrived at the Bundy
24       scene.  That's my slate picture.
25      Q.    The counter -- the 6 zeroes
26       in the right-hand corner, is that what
27       we refer to as the counter?
28      A.    That's the counter
 
   133
 1       imprinted on every negative.
 2      Q.    What you're saying is that
 3       the counter would click by one, each
 4       picture you take?
 5      A.    That is correct.
 6      Q.    Regardless of the location
 7       you take it?
 8      A.    That's correct.
 9      Q.    And it reflects the order
10       in which you take them?
11      A.    That is correct.
12      Q.    Page 70, line 2.
13MR. GELBLUM:  And I think that's it on this,
14 Your Honor.
15      Just a few more questions,
16       Mr. Rokahr.
17      Under LAPD policy, you're not
18       required to record the exact time of
19       each and every photograph you take, are
20       you?
21      A.    No, I'm not.
22      Q.    And you don't keep any
23       detailed photo log, or you didn't in
24       this case, indicating the exact time in
25       which you took each photo?
26      A.    No, I am not required to,
27       nor have I ever taken a certain time
28       down in writing as to when a photograph
 
   134
 1       was taken.
 2      Q.    At the time you were taking
 3       these pictures, it wasn't important to
 4       you to keep in mind any exact times;
 5       isn't that correct?
 6      A.    That is correct.  It's
 7       never important really at the time when
 8       I take the photographs unless I would be
 9       asked by a supervisor, make sure and
10       write down the time you take a certain
11       photograph.  Then I would.  And I don't
12       think that has ever happened.
13      Q.    Did it happen in this case?
14      A.    No.
15      Q.    So you've alleged some
16       problem because of that, remembering
17       exact or rough times you took pictures?
18      A.    I would never be able to
19       tell you at exactly what time I took
20       certain photographs.
21      Q.    Do you remember being
22       interviewed by LAPD Detective La Falls
23       (phonetic) sometime in 1994?
24      A.    Yes, I do remember.
25      Q.    About the point -- about
26       times -- did you tell him you arrived at
27       Bundy shortly after midnight?
28      A.    That is correct.  That's
 
   135
 1       what I told him.  I corrected that later
 2       on, saying that's the wrong time.
 3      Q.    Is it a fair statement,
 4       Mr. Rokahr, you can't -- really can't
 5       say when you took pictures?  That's a
 6       fair statement, isn't it?
 7      A.    That's a very fair
 8       statement, because I can't.
 9MR. GELBLUM:  That's it.
10MR. P. BAKER:  Page 10, line 15.  Are you
11 there?
12MR. LEONARD:  Yeah.
13MR. GELBLUM:  Okay.
14MR. P. BAKER:  (Reading:)
15      Q.    You do have a
16       recollection -- clear recollection as
17       you sit here today of the criminal --
18       your testimony in the criminal trial?
19      A.    About as clear as I can
20       have, I would say, a year after the
21       fact.
22      Q.    Do you have a clear
23       recollection of the work that you did in
24       the Simpson case when you took the crime
25       scene photographs?
26      A.    Yes, I do.
27      Q.    Page 45, line 23.
28    I understand.  I wasn't
 
   136
 1       really talking about the amount of time
 2       you were at the car.
 3    This is a question by
 4       Mr. Medvene I was talking about, just so
 5       we understand the chronology.
 6    Is it fair to say that
 7       after your conversation with Mr. --
 8       Detective Phillips when he said would
 9       you please wait until Detective Fuhrman
10       arrives, that you went to your car to
11       wait?
12      A.    I had started my overalls,
13       which is the normal routine for me even
14       if whoever is the lead detective in the
15       case is not there because those are
16       things that are needed by whoever is
17       going to investigate this case.
18    So knowing what they're
19       looking for, in other words, overall
20       photographs up and down the street, the
21       street signs and so on, I would say that
22       occurred prior probably, probably rather
23       early in my overalls.
24      Q.    Page 47, line 9.
25    Okay.
26    And are you refreshed now
27       that after Detective Phillips (sic) said
28       why don't you hold up on, in essence, on
 
   137
 1       taking any more pictures until Detective
 2       Phillips (sic) arrives, that you went
 3       over to your car to wait for his
 4       arrival?
 5      A.    I'm refreshed enough
 6       knowing the procedure that I used to
 7       work, that I would have said something
 8       like I'm almost finished or I got two or
 9       more to do, let me do those, so that
10       would have been very close to the last
11       two photographs on the bottom of this
12       first exhibit here.
13      Q.    Page 77, line 6, question
14       by Mr. Blasier:
15    You previously gave an
16       estimate --
17MR. GELBLUM:  I'm sorry, what page?
18MR. P. BAKER:  Page 77, line 6.  I'm sorry.
19MR. GELBLUM:  Okay.
20MR. P. BAKER:  (Reading:)
21      Q.    You previously gave an
22       estimate of various stages of the
23       process to take us up to picture 33 and
24       34; do you recall that?
25      A.    Yes, I do.
26      Q.    Is that still your best
27       estimate?
28      A.    I would say that's about as
 
   138
 1       close as I can come in my memory.
 2      Q.    Page 79, line 17.
 3    Do you have an opinion as a
 4       professional photographer looking at
 5       those last two pictures on that roll of
 6       1566 whether they were taken at night
 7       time?
 8      A.    I would say definitely they
 9       were.
10MR. P. BAKER:  Nothing further.
11MR. GELBLUM:  Nothing.
12MR. P. BAKER:  We'd like to move in 2051.
13MR. GELBLUM:  No objection.
14THE COURT:  Received.
15MR. P. BAKER:  2053.
16MR. GELBLUM:  It was misidentified as 2051.
17 It's 2053.
18THE CLERK:  So it will be 2053.
19
20     (The instrument herein described
21     as Photograph of walkway was
22     marked for identification as
23     Defendant's Exhibit
24     No. 2053.)
25
26
27     (The instrument herein described
28     was received in evidence as
 
   139
 1     Defendants' Exhibit No. 2053.)
 2
 3MR. BAKER:  Officer Aston, please.
 4
 5
 6     RICHARD ASTON,
 7 called as a witness on behalf of Defendants, was duly
 8 sworn and testified as follows:
 9
10THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the
11 testimony you may give in the cause now pending before
12 this court shall be the truth, the whole truth and
13 nothing but the truth, so help you God~?
14THE WITNESS:  I swear.
15THE CLERK:  Would you please state and spell
16 your name.
17THE WITNESS:  Richard, R-i-c-h-a-r-d, Aston,
18 A-s-t-o-n.
19
20   DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. BAKER:
22Q.    Officer Aston, you're obviously employed
23 by the LAPD?
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    You were employed by the LAPD on June 12,
26 1994?
27A.    Yes.
28Q.    And on June 13, 1994, correct?
 
   140
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    Now, on June 12, 1994, did you and your
 3 partner, Officer Gonzalez, go to 875 South Bundy?
 4A.    Yes, we did.
 5Q.    And did you knock doors at that location?
 6A.    Yes.
 7Q.    And did you see your partner playing with
 8 a dog at the corner of Dorothy and Bundy?
 9A.    Playing with a dog?
10Q.    Yes.
11A.    No.
12Q.    What was he doing with the dog?
13A.    I didn't see my partner with a dog at
14 all.
15Q.    Never saw him with a dog?
16A.    No.
17Q.    Now, how long were you at Bundy?
18A.    Approximately two hours, perhaps a little
19 more.
20Q.    And what time did you arrive?
21A.    A little after midnight, perhaps
22 12:30ish.
23Q.    Left there about 2:30?
24A.    3 -- 2:30, 3.
25Q.    And you actually went up and viewed the
26 body of Nicole Brown Simpson at that location, did you
27 not?
28A.    I viewed a body from the roadway itself.
 
   141
 1 I didn't approach it.
 2Q.    Well, you knew that was Nicole Brown
 3 Simpson's body when you looked at the body, did you
 4 not, sir?
 5A.    No.
 6Q.    Are you telling us that there wasn't --
 7 well, strike that.
 8      How many officers were present when you
 9 were there from 12:30 to approximately 3 a.m.?
10A.    When I first arrived there must have been
11 approximately four officers, I believe, or five.  By
12 the time that I had left, there was substantially more
13 perhaps.
14Q.    20 to 30?
15A.    I don't think that many.
16Q.    There were over 20 officers when you left
17 at 3 o'clock, were there not, sir?
18A.    I don't recall that number.
19Q.    Is it your testimony that you had no
20 conversations with any LAPD officer that was at the
21 scene that the body that you viewed from Bundy was the
22 body of Nicole Brown Simpson?
23A.    I may have been told that later.  When I
24 first viewed the body, I had no idea who it was.
25Q.    Maybe you can answer my question.
26      Is it your testimony that between the
27 time you arrived there at 12:30 and the time you left
28 at 3, you didn't know that one of the murder victims
 
   142
 1 was Nicole Brown Simpson?
 2A.    I believe that I could have been told
 3 that it was O.J. Simpson's wife, but I did not know
 4 her name either.
 5Q.    Well, you knew this was a high-profile
 6 celebrity homicide before you left at 3 o'clock in the
 7 morning, did you not, sir?
 8A.    Well, I didn't term it that way in my
 9 mind.
10      Obviously, the name was familiar to me.
11Q.    And now is it your testimony that what
12 you did was knock doors between 12:30 and 3?
13MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, that misstates what he
14 said, Your Honor.
15THE COURT:  Overruled.
16A.    No, I did not.
17Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Well, you had some
18 conversations with other LAPD officers.  There was a
19 bunch of them standing around at Dorothy and Bundy,
20 were they not?
21A.    There were officers in two separate
22 locations.  One of them was at Bundy and Dorothy.
23Q.    And you were down there at Dorothy and
24 Bundy, were you not?
25A.    Yes, I was.
26Q.    And you were talking to the other
27 officers at Dorothy and Bundy about what was going on
28 at the crime scene, were you not?
 
   143
 1A.    I actually spoke with officers at Bundy
 2 and Montana.
 3Q.    My question was, you were down at the
 4 corner of Dorothy and Bundy talking to other officers
 5 about what was going on at the crime scene; that's
 6 true, is it not?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    Now, you also went up to Montana and were
 9 talking to officers about what was going on, right?
10A.    Yes.
11Q.    And when you left the crime scene, did
12 you make any written report about what you had seen at
13 875 South Bundy?
14A.    Yes.
15Q.    Have you ever seen that since?
16A.    Approximately 15 minutes ago I saw a
17 facsimile of it.
18Q.    That's the only time you've seen it?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    The one in your handwriting?
21A.    Yes.
22Q.    What time did you arrive at Rockingham on
23 the morning of June 13, 1994?
24A.    Approximately 5 a.m.
25Q.    Did you get there before the other
26 detectives got there, that is Phillips, Fuhrman, Lange
27 and Vannatter?
28A.    No.
 
   144
 1Q.    They were there?
 2A.    Yes.
 3Q.    Had they gone over the wall by the time
 4 you arrived?
 5A.    No.
 6Q.    Did you -- by the way, who showed you
 7 your statement a couple minutes ago?
 8A.    Gentleman behind the apparatus there in
 9 the middle.
10Q.    Mr. Foster?
11A.    Yes.
12Q.    Had you talked to anybody about your
13 testimony from the plaintiffs' side before you got
14 here today?
15A.    Yes.
16Q.    Who?
17A.    Mr. Medvene and Mr. Otis Marlow.
18Q.    Otis Marlow, he was -- at the time in
19 June of 1994, he was an LAPD officer?
20A.    I don't know.
21Q.    Was he a friend of yours?
22A.    I've never seen him before a couple weeks
23 ago.
24Q.    Now, when did you talk to Mr. Medvene?
25A.    Yesterday, by telephone.
26Q.    When did you visit with Mr. Medvene
27 before yesterday by telephone?
28A.    I've never seen Mr. Medvene.
 
   145
 1Q.    When did you talk to Marlow?
 2A.    Approximately two, three weeks ago.
 3Q.    And did he indicate to you he was a
 4 former LAPD officer who is now -- who had investigated
 5 the Simpson case as an LAPD officer who is now a
 6 private investigator working for the plaintiffs?
 7A.    Did he say that he worked as an
 8 investigator on the case?
 9Q.    Yes, as an LAPD officer?
10A.    No, he did not.
11Q.    He didn't disclose that to you?
12A.    No.
13Q.    All right.
14      Now, how long did you talk to Marlow?
15A.    Approximately 45 minutes.
16Q.    And did you go over the police -- LAPD
17 impound report?
18A.    No.
19Q.    Did you discuss with Marlow what you saw
20 on the night of June 13, 1994 and heard at the
21 Rockingham address?
22A.    I don't believe so.
23Q.    Now, so it's your best recollection as
24 you sit here today that you arrived at the Rockingham
25 address at approximately 5:00 in the morning, right?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    It was dark out, correct?
28A.    Dawn was beginning to break, but yes, it
 
   146
 1 was dark.
 2Q.    Now, how did your vehicle get to the
 3 Rockingham address?  Did you come up Sunset?
 4A.    Yes.
 5Q.    Did you turn on Rockingham?
 6A.    Yes.
 7Q.    And where did you park your -- were you
 8 driving?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    And you parked your vehicle where?
11A.    At the corner of Rockingham and Ashford
12 but on Rockingham.
13MR. P. BAKER:  Civil 116.  The board.
14
15    (Exhibit 116 is displayed.)
16
17Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Your vehicle was parked
18 about where the word avenue is on 116?
19A.    More to the point where -- the point
20 where the diagram cuts off at an angle, there's kind
21 of a triangular grass section or island, and I parked
22 facing south on Rockingham against that curve.
23Q.    Over in this area?  (Indicating.)
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    So you turned your vehicle around?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    All right.
28      Now, when you arrived at Rockingham, how
 
   147
 1 many police vehicles were there?
 2A.    I believe two unmarked vehicles.  There
 3 were no other black-and-white patrol vehicles.
 4Q.    Any other vehicles on the scene?
 5A.    Yes.  Westec Security vehicle was there,
 6 perhaps two, I can't recall.
 7Q.    Did you -- when you arrived, where were
 8 the four detectives?
 9A.    Standing within the roadway, almost at
10 the place where I stopped the vehicle.
11Q.    Out by the corner of Ashford and
12 Rockingham?
13A.    Yes.
14Q.    Now, at that point in time, did you go
15 back over by the Ashford gate before Fuhrman went over
16 the wall?
17A.    Yes.
18Q.    Did you hear the conversations of the
19 four detectives relative to what they were talking
20 about before they elected to go over the wall to
21 Mr. Simpson's property?
22A.    Some of the conversation, yes.
23Q.    And you heard them discuss that there
24 might have been a kidnapping, a murder, Mr. Simpson
25 might have been bleeding inside the house, you heard
26 that discussion?
27MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor, calls for
28 hearsay evidence.
 
   148
 1THE COURT:  I'll allow it since the witness has
 2 testified previously.
 3MR. MEDVENE:  It's also not relevant.
 4THE COURT:  Overruled.
 5A.    I can't recall the exact nature of the
 6 conversation although I do remember there being some
 7 concern about what could have perhaps occurred on the
 8 inside.
 9Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  And did Fuhrman take you
10 down to the -- to the Bronco and show you anything
11 that he thought was indicative of possible foul play?
12A.    We went as a loose group to the vehicle,
13 yes.
14Q.    So in the loose group -- did that include
15 you and Officer Gonzalez?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    Anybody else in that loose group?
18A.    All of the rest of the investigators, I
19 believe that the Westec officer had I believe, by that
20 point.
21Q.    Okay.
22      So -- so, I want to set the scene.  Then
23 what you're telling this jury is that when you went
24 down to the Bronco, it was not just you and it was not
25 just Officer Gonzalez, you all, that is all six of you
26 went down to that vehicle to inspect it at the same
27 time, right?
28A.    Yes.
 
   149
 1Q.    Okay.
 2      And from what you were led to believe,
 3 Fuhrman -- well, strike that.
 4      Fuhrman had come back from looking at
 5 the -- at the Bronco and requested that you guys come
 6 down there and show -- strike that -- come down to the
 7 Bronco so that he could show you all what he had
 8 found, right?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    So your impression, when all six of you
11 together go down towards the Bronco, is that he is now
12 going to point out to you something that he thinks was
13 amiss with that vehicle, right?
14MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor, calls for
15 conclusion, lack of foundation asking for his --
16THE COURT:  Sustained.
17      He may testify as to what he did or what
18 he saw.
19Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Your state of mind at the
20 time that you parked at the point of Rockingham and
21 Ashford, down to -- down to the -- down to the Bronco,
22 was that Fuhrman was going to point out something to
23 you and the other detectives, correct?
24MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor, relevance,
25 his state of mind.
26THE COURT:  Overruled.
27A.    I'm not quite sure what I expected.  I
28 was just naturally curious, and there was something to
 
   150
 1 be seen, I assumed.
 2Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  And so that I'm clear,
 3 then did you and the other three detectives from --
 4 plain clothes detectives and you and officer Gonzalez
 5 go directly to the left front door of the Bronco?
 6A.    Yes.
 7Q.    So there was no walking any place but
 8 from the point between Ashford and Rockingham out in
 9 the street and directly to the left front door and
10 looking at a purported spot over the driver door
11 handle, right?
12A.    That's correct.
13Q.    And you thought when you saw it, this is
14 something of real significance, right, this mark above
15 the door handle, that was your state of mind?
16MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, relevance, immaterial,
17 the case is not about probable cause.
18THE COURT:  Overruled.
19A.    I made no determination as to its
20 significance at all.
21Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Well, did you make any
22 significance to anything that was pointed out to you
23 on the Bronco?
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    All right.
26MR. BAKER:  Now, is this a good time, Your
27 Honor?  I see --
28THE COURT:  Okay, ladies and gentlemen, 1:30.
 
   151
 1 Please don't talk about the case, don't form or
 2 express any opinions.
 3
 4     (At 12:00 p.m. a recess was taken
 5     until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)
 6
 7
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   152
 1 SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, JANUARY 6, 1997
 2    1:45 P.M.
 3 DEPARTMENT NO. WEN    HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE
 4 APPEARANCES:
 5      (PER COVER PAGE.)
 6      (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)
 7      (Jurors resume their respective seats.)
 8
 9MR. PETROCELLI:  Your Honor, may Mr. Baker and
10 I approach without a reporter for a second?
11THE COURT:  Yes.
12
13     (A bench conference was held which
14     was not reported.)
15
16MR. BAKER:  Thank you, Your Honor.
17
18     DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
19 BY MR. BAKER:
20Q.    Officer, what did you speak with
21 Mr. Marlow about for 45 minutes, when you spoke to him
22 a couple weeks ago?
23A.    He explained to me who he was and who he
24 represented.  He explained that he was an ex-officer
25 and he basically explained to me what I was to expect
26 with regards to questioning.
27Q.    Well, what did he tell you you were to
28 expect?
 
   153
 1A.    That the focus, probably, of the question
 2 would be with regards to the Bronco at the Rockingham
 3 scene.
 4Q.    Did he talk to you about the impound
 5 report?
 6A.    He asked me if I prepared it, I believe.
 7Q.    And you observed it being prepared by
 8 your partner, correct?
 9A.    I saw him preparing it, yes.
10Q.    Now, you -- is this a document that you
11 reviewed this morning?
12A.    I saw this paper, yes, for a few seconds.
13Q.    Have you reviewed anything else in
14 preparation for your testimony?
15A.    Nothing.
16Q.    Now, you gave a statement to Detective
17 Ron Phillips, did you not?
18A.    Yes.
19Q.    You ever seen that?
20A.    No.
21Q.    Now, that was part of your official
22 police duties, was it not?
23      Let me give you a copy of it.
24MR. P. BAKER:  That's 1801.
25     (The instrument herein described
26     as statement of Officer Aston was
27     Marked for identification as
28     Defendant's Exhibit No. 1801.)
 
   154
 1     (Exhibit 1801 handed to witness.)
 2
 3Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  When did you give that
 4 interview to Detective Ron Phillips?
 5A.    A short time prior to the criminal trial.
 6Q.    January of 1995, right?
 7A.    Quite possible.
 8Q.    And did you give it the same time as
 9 officer Gonzalez gave his statement to Ron Phillips?
10A.    I don't know.
11Q.    Were you both in the room at the same
12 time?
13A.    No.
14Q.    Do you recall giving your statement to
15 Phillips?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    You were alone?
18A.    I was within the detective office at West
19 Los Angeles, so -- but we were talking together.
20Q.    And was it recorded?
21A.    I don't believe so.
22Q.    Now, you, in giving that statement to
23 detective Phillips, you had a fairly clear
24 recollection of events of the night of June 13, 1994,
25 correct?
26A.    Somewhat, yes.
27Q.    And you didn't indicate to Detective
28 Phillips that all six of you officers went to the
 
   155
 1 Bronco together, did you?
 2A.    I can't remember what I said, and I
 3 haven't read this yet.
 4Q.    Well, look at page 2 of your statement,
 5 and down to the third paragraph from the bottom.  It
 6 says went over to the Bronco, parked on Rockingham
 7 with his partner Gonzalez and Detective Fuhrman.
 8 Never mentions Phillips, never mentions Lange, never
 9 mentions Vannatter, does it?
10A.    No, it does not.
11Q.    So is it your testimony now that all six
12 of you were together that morning, sir, when you went
13 over to observe the Bronco?
14A.    Yes, it is.
15Q.    And that's your best recollection, right?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    Did you tell Phillips that all six of
18 you, including him, went over to the Bronco together
19 when you gave this statement in January of 1995?
20A.    I believe so.
21Q.    So it had to be Phillips who made the
22 error because you have a clear recollection that all
23 six of you went over there at the same time, true?
24MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, misstates what he
25 said.  The statement speaks for itself.  It doesn't
26 say everyone who was there.  It says two people that
27 were there.
28MR. BAKER:  That's argumentative, Your Honor.
 
   156
 1THE COURT:  Sustained.
 2Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Is it your view now, in
 3 looking at the statement that you gave in January of
 4 1995, that Phillips was wrong and he did not mention
 5 the fact that you had informed him that you went with
 6 him as well as all of the other detectives?
 7A.    I believe it's omitted.
 8Q.    You don't know why it's omitted?
 9A.    Correct.
10Q.    Now, was anybody else there at the scene
11 besides the four detectives, yourself, and Officer
12 Gonzalez, before 7 o'clock in the morning?
13A.    Yes.
14Q.    Who?
15A.    Two I recall, Westec officers.
16Q.    From LAPD?
17      Sorry, poor question.
18A.    I'm sorry?
19Q.    Was anybody else from LAPD there between
20 the time you arrived at around 5 o'clock in the
21 morning and 7 a.m. in the morning of June 13 at 360
22 North Rockingham?
23A.    Not that I can recall.
24Q.    Detective Roberts never came by?
25A.    I don't know who Detective Roberts is.
26Q.    Didn't see any other detective other than
27 the four that you're aware of that includes Vannatter,
28 Lange, Phillips and Fuhrman, right?
 
   157
 1A.    That's correct.  That's all I can recall.
 2Q.    And you certainly knew Fuhrman and
 3 Phillips before because you worked out of West LA,
 4 correct?
 5A.    Yes.
 6Q.    Now, after you got there and you walked
 7 down -- well, strike that.
 8      After you arrived, how long was it before
 9 you went down to the Bronco?
10A.    I can't say accurately.  I can
11 approximate.
12Q.    Sure, give me an estimate.
13A.    20, 15 minutes.
14Q.    So 5:15, 5:20, thereabouts?
15A.    Yes.
16Q.    And how long after you went down to the
17 Bronco was it before Fuhrman went over the wall?
18A.    I don't recall Officer Fuhrman going over
19 the wall at all.
20Q.    Well, the gate.
21      Did you see him go and actually scale the
22 gate on Ashford and go into Mr. Simpson's property?
23A.    I don't recall him doing that.
24MR. BAKER:  Now, Phil, could you get me the
25 aerial photo that shows Rockingham as well as Bundy.
26Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Now, after you were --
27 all six of you went to the Bronco, how long were you
28 there around the Bronco?
 
   158
 1A.    Ten minutes, perhaps less.
 2Q.    Ten minutes at the Bronco to look at this
 3 little spot above the driver's door handle?
 4MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor, misstates
 5 ten minutes, perhaps less.
 6THE COURT:  Overruled.
 7A.    That span of time wasn't spent
 8 predominantly looking at the blood spot on the door
 9 handle.
10Q.    Well, did you -- did you see any other
11 blood spots, for example, on the door sill?
12A.    I don't recall seeing any blood on the
13 door sill.
14Q.    Well, now, did you have a discussion with
15 your partner, Dennis Gonzalez (sic), that he saw these
16 spots through the bottom crevice on the driver's side
17 door of the Bronco; did you have any discussion about
18 that at all?
19A.    No.
20Q.    Did he indicate to you that he had seen
21 blood spots any place on the Bronco other than at the
22 door sill?
23MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, calls for hearsay.
24MR. BAKER:  It's not to prove --
25THE COURT:  Overruled.
26Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Door handle, I'm sorry.
27THE COURT:  Asked about the conversation of a
28 previous witness testifying on the same subject.
 
   159
 1A.    It wasn't so much that we discussed it.
 2 As we were around the vehicle itself, we could see
 3 into it at the same time, and from what we saw -- the
 4 general discussion was what we saw inside the vehicle.
 5Q.    Okay.
 6      Now, all six of you were there these ten
 7 minutes and had this general discussion about what was
 8 inside the Bronco, correct?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    All right.
11      Now, you -- Did anyone get into the
12 Bronco?
13A.    No.
14Q.    Did anyone attempt to get into the
15 Bronco?
16A.    Nobody touched it.
17Q.    So you don't know if the Bronco is locked
18 or unlocked, right?
19A.    That's correct.
20Q.    And nobody knew if the Bronco was locked
21 or unlocked, right?
22MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, calls for speculation,
23 lack of foundation as to what others knew.
24THE COURT:  Sustained.
25Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Are you telling this
26 jury, Officer Aston, that there were six officers from
27 the LAPD around there, they determined that there was
28 what they thought was a blood spot over the left door
 
   160
 1 handle of this Bronco, that they thought that there
 2 might be some emergent situation going on in
 3 Mr. Simpson's house, and not one of the six checked
 4 the door handle of the Bronco?
 5MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor, the
 6 question is argumentative, to form, and also misstates
 7 what the witness said.
 8THE COURT:  Sustained.
 9Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Are you telling this jury
10 that no one checked the door handle of that Bronco to
11 see if they could enter that vehicle?
12MR. MEDVENE:  Same Objection, Your Honor.
13THE COURT:  Overruled.
14A.    I don't know of any reason why anybody
15 would want to go into the vehicle at that point
16 anyway.
17Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  All right.
18      Let's get into that a little bit.
19      Now, you told Officer Phillips when you
20 gave a statement to him, that you thought there was a
21 blood smear on the console, did you not?
22A.    Well, I saw one, or what appeared to be
23 one, yes.
24Q.    So you thought that there was a blood
25 smear on the console and you didn't think there was
26 any reason to get into the Bronco, right?
27A.    That's right.
28Q.    Now, did you talk to your partner because
 
   161
 1 he said -- Dennis Gonzalez testified there were two
 2 large drops on the console?
 3MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, calls for hearsay,
 4 he's having to speculate on what other --
 5THE COURT:  Sustained.
 6Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Did you talk to -- strike
 7 that.
 8      Let me ask you this:  In your experience
 9 can you take a leather glove and turn blood drops into
10 a smear?
11MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor.
12THE COURT:  Sustained.
13MR. MEDVENE:  Foundation.
14Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  So all six of you are
15 looking into this vehicle, you see a blood smear on
16 the center console and don't see any drops, right?
17A.    What do we mean when you're talking about
18 a console, are we talking about a dash or a center
19 console or -- I'm not quite sure about that.
20Q.    All right.  Let's look your statement.
21      Look at page 2 of your statement, down
22 towards the bottom, second paragraph from the bottom.
23MR. BAKER:  Phil, you want to put that up.
24MR. MEDVENE:  Objection to putting it up, Your
25 Honor.  No indication it's impeaching.
26THE COURT:  I can't hear you.
27MR. MEDVENE:  No indication it's impeaching.
28 It's not in evidence at this point.
 
   162
 1THE COURT:  Okay.  Sustained.
 2      Ask a question.
 3Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Have you read that
 4 paragraph?
 5A.    Yes, I have.
 6Q.    Are we talking about the center console,
 7 Officer Aston?
 8A.    Yes.
 9Q.    Did you see a smear any place else?  You
10 can't recall whether or not we were talking about the
11 center console or anything else?
12A.    No, I didn't see a smear but I saw a drop
13 somewhere else.
14Q.    Now, you said you noticed a smear on the
15 center console, right?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    And that's what you noticed when you were
18 out there on June 13, 1994.  Absolutely no one got
19 into that Bronco and you saw a smear on the center
20 console, right?
21A.    That's correct.
22Q.    Now, you saw a blood drop on the
23 dashboard area between the steering wheel and the
24 windshield, right?
25A.    Yes.
26Q.    Did anybody else see anything, any blood
27 drop in that area, that you talked to, on June 13,
28 1994, when you were standing out there by the Bronco?
 
   163
 1MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, lack of foundation,
 2 calls for conclusion, speculation what others saw,
 3 Your Honor.
 4THE COURT:  Sustained.
 5Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Did you have a discussion
 6 with anybody that you made this discovery and that
 7 nobody else said that's a blood drop, that's no blood
 8 drop, did you have anything like that?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    And nobody confirmed what you thought was
11 a blood drop was a blood drop, correct?
12A.    I believe that everybody saw the same
13 thing I did.
14Q.    Okay.
15      So there was a blood drop, as far as you
16 are aware, between the steering wheel and the
17 windshield, right?
18A.    Yes.
19Q.    All right.
20      And you were clear that it was there,
21 true?
22A.    True.
23Q.    No doubt about it whatsoever, correct?
24A.    Correct.
25Q.    All right.
26      And then you -- you then checked --
27 you're the person that actually checked to see who the
28 ownership of this vehicle was?
 
   164
 1A.    I can't recall.  I believe it would be
 2 either myself or Officer Gonzalez.
 3Q.    Do you have a recollection of that?
 4A.    No.
 5Q.    Look at last paragraph, page 2.
 6      You check with your MVT and found that
 7 the vehicle belonged to Hertz, right?
 8A.    That's right.
 9Q.    You have a recollection?  That refreshes
10 your recollection?
11      In fact, in reviewing this statement, you
12 don't have any indication that anything contained in
13 this statement is incorrect, true?
14A.    That's correct.
15Q.    Everything contained in this statement,
16 as far as you are aware, is true and accurate as to
17 what you told Officer Phillips or Detective Phillips
18 in January of 1995, true?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    All right.
21      Now, then you were the one that requested
22 SID to come to Rockingham?
23A.    I don't believe I would have the
24 authority to do that.
25Q.    Well, if a detective directed you, you'd
26 call and make sure that SID got there, right?
27A.    Yes.
28Q.    And did you do that in this case or not?
 
   165
 1A.    I don't know.
 2Q.    You don't have a recollection one way or
 3 the other, true?
 4A.    That's true.
 5Q.    Now, you do recall at the Rockingham site
 6 seeing officers, that is the detectives, go around to
 7 the north side of the house, and around and into the
 8 back, correct?
 9A.    No.
10Q.    You have no recollection of that?
11A.    From where I was standing I had an
12 opportunity to be able to see them go into the
13 property and walk along the pathway.  From that point
14 on, the view was blocked, I didn't see where they went
15 from there.
16Q.    So you just saw them on the north side of
17 the house going along the pathway?
18A.    Yes.
19Q.    What time was that approximately?
20A.    Approximately, 5:45, 5:30.
21Q.    Now, when you were -- after you had
22 observed this blood smear on the center console, and
23 this drop you say you saw on the instrument panel
24 between the steering wheel and the windshield, did you
25 then go back to the area around the intersection of
26 Ashford and Rockingham?
27A.    Yes.
28Q.    Did you remain there throughout the time
 
   166
 1 that you were at Rockingham until you left the first
 2 time?
 3A.    Yes.
 4Q.    Did you walk down to the Ashford gate or
 5 not?
 6A.    I had approached it once, I think, just
 7 prior to that.  I don't even think that I got onto the
 8 full court area of the driveway.
 9Q.    Now, when you came back after your
10 first -- your initial time at the Bronco, was there a
11 discussion out in front of the Ashford gate concerning
12 whether or not there was an emergent situation in
13 Mr. Simpson's estate?
14MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, relevance,
15 materiality, goes to probable cause which is not an
16 issue in this case, Your Honor.
17THE COURT:  You may answer yes or no.
18A.    It's hard to do that.
19      The actual drop wasn't in the gate when I
20 was -- got there.  They were more in the larger
21 portion of the intersection itself.
22Q.    Maybe you didn't understand the question.
23 I apologize.  Let me see if I can ask it again.
24      After -- not when you got there, after
25 you'd gone down to the Bronco, all six of you, and
26 were there about ten minutes, and you came back up
27 towards the intersection, did you not?
28A.    Yes.
 
   167
 1Q.    And was there subsequently a conversation
 2 in front of the Ashford gate relative to whether or
 3 not there was some sort of emergent situation in Mr.
 4 Simpson's house?
 5A.    I don't have a distinct memory of that.
 6Q.    If others testified that they stood there
 7 and discussed, after they rang the bell, about the
 8 emergent situation in Mr. Simpson's house, you
 9 wouldn't disagree with that?
10MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor.
11THE COURT:  Sustained.
12Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  You have no recollection
13 of hearing the conversation about the emergent
14 situation in Mr. Simpson's house?
15A.    No.
16Q.    And you have no recollection of seeing
17 Mark Fuhrman go over the gate, right?
18A.    That's correct.
19Q.    And you were -- after you came back from
20 the excursion from the Bronco, you remained in the
21 area between the Ashford gate and Rockingham, right?
22A.    Well, I positioned myself such that I
23 could see the Bronco from that point.
24Q.    And you could see the Bronco from your
25 vantage point, basically on the point there between
26 Rockingham and Ashford, right?
27A.    Approximately, yes.
28Q.    That's where you stayed, right?
 
   168
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    And you didn't hear any discussions about
 3 whether or not Fuhrman was going to go over the wall?
 4A.    Not that I recall.
 5Q.    And you didn't see him go over the wall?
 6A.    I don't remember seeing him.
 7Q.    And you didn't know that he went over the
 8 wall at all the night of June 13, 1994, right?
 9A.    That's correct.
10Q.    Never had any idea that this detective
11 that you knew from the West Los Angeles Police
12 Department had jumped the wall and entered
13 Mr. Simpson's estate while you were standing guard out
14 here at the point between Ashford and Rockingham,
15 right.
16A.    I don't recall seeing him climb a gate or
17 scale a wall.
18Q.    You don't have any recollection that he
19 even did that on the night of June 13, true?
20A.    That's true.
21Q.    Okay.
22      But you do recall seeing the detectives
23 from your vantage point, going on the north side of
24 Mr. Simpson's property,
25 up the pathway and then lost sight of them, right?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    And what time was that, did you say, I'm
28 sorry?
 
   169
 1A.    Approximately 5:30, 5:45.
 2Q.    And how -- and how long was it until they
 3 came back with Arnelle Simpson?
 4A.    I don't know specifically.
 5Q.    Estimate.  5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15,
 6 half hour, hour?
 7A.    It's hard for me to say.  Approximately,
 8 between 15 to 30 minutes.  I don't know.
 9Q.    So sometime between 6 and 6:15?
10A.    I don't know.
11Q.    Now, you observed the detectives walk
12 back with a black female that was later identified to
13 you as Arnelle Simpson, right?
14A.    Yes.
15Q.    And they walked around the path and down
16 into the driveway, did they not?
17A.    Yes.
18Q.    Did you see any detective take Arnelle
19 Simpson and lead her over to the Rockingham gate to
20 look at the Bronco?
21A.    No.
22Q.    Did you hear any detective tell Arnelle
23 Simpson that her stepmother had been murdered?
24A.    No.
25Q.    And you saw a group of detectives leading
26 Arnelle Simpson from the north path out towards the
27 driveway area, correct?
28A.    I can't recall how many people were with
 
   170
 1 her.  I seem to recall there not being -- perhaps one
 2 or two.
 3Q.    Why don't you look at page 3 of your
 4 statement, fourth paragraph down, and see if that
 5 refreshes your recollection.
 6A.    Okay.
 7Q.    Now, you observed two or three detectives
 8 leading her back, right?
 9A.    That's correct.
10Q.    Now, you never saw Arnelle Simpson or the
11 detectives go back down the path and toward the rear
12 of the house again after they came forward, isn't that
13 true?
14A.    Yes, I believe it to be.
15Q.    And they entered the house from the front
16 door, didn't they?
17A.    I don't know.  I couldn't see.
18Q.    Well, did you ever see the detectives and
19 Arnelle Simpson outside after you saw the detectives
20 escort her around on the north side of the house at
21 all?
22A.    Could you repeat that, please.
23Q.    Did you see Arnelle Simpson or the
24 detectives outside of the house after they were
25 escorting her around on the north side?
26A.    Not that I can recall.
27Q.    And you stayed there and you were to kind
28 of guard the premises, right?
 
   171
 1A.    Well, I was basically there to not only
 2 make sure that nobody entered, but also to make sure
 3 that nobody approached the Bronco, as well, or opened
 4 it.
 5Q.    And you stayed at that post for how long?
 6A.    Approximately an hour to an hour and a
 7 half.
 8Q.    Now, during that period for an hour to an
 9 hour and a half, when was it that you used your MDT to
10 request a criminalist to come to the scene?
11A.    I don't know.
12Q.    Was it the beginning, was it the middle,
13 was it the end?
14A.    I believe towards the later portion.
15Q.    And the later portion would have been
16 about 7 a.m.?
17A.    Perhaps a little earlier.  Between 6:00
18 and 7:00
19Q.    Well, that's a pretty good bit of time,
20 between 6:00 and 7:00.
21      Can you be more specific about that?
22A.    No.
23Q.    All right.
24      Let's go through it a bit.
25      You got there at 5:00.  By 5:45 or
26 thereabouts you saw the detectives going up the path
27 on the north side of the house, correct?
28A.    Yes.
 
   172
 1Q.    You saw within 15 to 30 minutes, 6 to
 2 6:15, you saw them coming back with Arnelle Simpson,
 3 correct?
 4A.    Approximately.
 5Q.    Was it an hour to an hour and a half
 6 after that till you left?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    So it would have been after 7 o'clock?
 9A.    I can't say.  I don't know what time it
10 was that I called.
11Q.    Well, are there any log sheets that
12 indicate what time you used your MVT . . . yeah, your
13 MVT?
14A.    I believe there would be a record of a
15 transmission and time.
16Q.    There would be a record when you used
17 your MVT to get the ownership of the Bronco as well as
18 when you were communicating with -- to get SID out
19 there, correct?
20A.    Yes.
21Q.    All right.
22      Now, you left Rockingham and drove a
23 detective to Bundy?
24A.    Yes, I did.  Although I'm not quite sure
25 as to when that happened.  I just know that I did.
26Q.    Now, before you left, did Fuhrman come
27 out and tell you that he'd found a glove back on the
28 south side of the property?
 
   173
 1A.    No.
 2Q.    Where was officer -- where was Gonzalez
 3 during all this period of time?
 4A.    I believe he also went on the property,
 5 too.
 6Q.    Did he go in the gate?
 7A.    I believe so.
 8Q.    And you stayed outside the gate?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    Okay.
11      And did you ever go back down the south
12 side of the property to look to see where a glove was
13 purportedly found?
14A.    No.
15Q.    Did you have any conversations with
16 Gonzalez, your partner, about his allegedly finding a
17 glove?
18A.    No.
19Q.    Did you have any conversations with your
20 partner, Dennis Gonzalez, about the fact that
21 Rockingham was turned into a crime scene at any time?
22A.    I don't recall any.
23Q.    So as far as you were concerned, 360
24 North Rockingham wasn't a crime scene, the entire time
25 you were there until you left, sometime after
26 7 o'clock?
27A.    No.
28MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, argumentative,
 
   174
 1 misstates the testimony.  Didn't say that.  Just said
 2 he didn't have any conversation with Officer Gonzalez.
 3MR. BAKER:  Your Honor, if we could have an
 4 objection on the Evidence Code in place of
 5 Mr. Medvene's speech.  I would suggest that's what we
 6 ought to do.
 7THE COURT:  It's overruled.
 8A.    The answer is no.
 9Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Now, why did you leave
10 your post guarding Rockingham and go to Bundy?
11MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, relevance,
12 materiality, Your Honor.
13THE COURT:  Overruled.
14A.    I was asked to transport, I think,
15 Detective Lange back to Bundy for a short period of
16 time and then return with him.
17Q.    Well, your vehicle, as I understand it,
18 was over here, right?
19A.    No.
20Q.    Here?
21A.    More towards -- further this way, towards
22 the edge of the picture.  (Indicating.)
23Q.    Over here?
24A.    No.  Come down.  Keep going.  Keep going.
25Q.    Here?
26A.    That's fine.  Right there.
27Q.    It was pointed north?
28A.    It was pointed this way.
 
   175
 1Q.    South?
 2A.    Yes.
 3Q.    And it was on the north side of the
 4 street?
 5A.    Yes.
 6Q.    And the two plain -- two LAPD unmarked
 7 cars were over here?
 8A.    I'm not sure where they were positioned.
 9 I don't -- I think perhaps one was there, but I don't
10 know for sure.
11Q.    Did you see Fuhrman get out of the
12 property to get in his vehicle to go to Bundy?
13A.    Not that I can recall.
14Q.    Did you have any discussions as to
15 whether anybody else had gone to Bundy, for example,
16 Fuhrman taking the glove back to see if it matched?
17A.    No.
18MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor, that
19 assumes facts not in evidence.  No fact like that.
20THE COURT:  Sustained.  There's no testimony in
21 that regard.
22MR. BAKER:  The testimony is from Ron Phillips,
23 Your Honor.
24MR. MEDVENE:  We'd like there not to be an
25 objection that misstates Ron Phillips testimony, Your
26 Honor.
27THE COURT:  Sustained.
28Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Now, you never saw
 
   176
 1 Fuhrman leave, correct?
 2A.    That's correct.
 3Q.    You never saw any detective come out and
 4 get in an unmarked car and leave, correct?
 5A.    As far as I can recall, that's correct.
 6Q.    And when you left both unmarked police
 7 cars were still there, right?
 8A.    I believe so.
 9Q.    And so who did you take over to Bundy?
10A.    Detective Lange.
11Q.    And you were going to take him over there
12 and then bring him back to Rockingham.  That was your
13 testimony, right?
14A.    That's what I did.
15Q.    So you took him over to Bundy.
16      And what was the purpose in doing that,
17 sir, or were you told?
18A.    I didn't ask and I wasn't told.
19Q.    And how long did Lange stay at Bundy
20 until you took him back to Rockingham?
21A.    I think about ten minutes.
22Q.    Okay.
23      And during that time did you just
24 dutifully sit in your black and white and wait for
25 him?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    And then you turned around and brought
28 Lange straight back to Rockingham, correct?
 
   177
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    Do you know approximately what time that
 3 was; was that after 7:00?
 4A.    I don't know.  I don't think it was that
 5 late.
 6      If I can recall by the -- the available
 7 daylight, it seemed to be darker than the normal
 8 daylight, so I would assume it would be around --
 9 about 6 or perhaps a little earlier, but I'm not sure.
10Q.    Well, you got there at 5, and then it
11 took some period of time for all six of you to go to
12 the Bronco, and it took ten minutes or so there, and
13 then you saw the detectives go to the north side of
14 the house and come back ten or 15 minutes later with
15 Arnelle.
16      How much after you saw Arnelle Simpson
17 being escorted by the detectives from the north side
18 of house was it until you left Rockingham and made the
19 round trip to Bundy?
20A.    I don't know.
21Q.    Don't have any estimate whatsoever?
22A.    Not that would be accurate.
23Q.    Okay.
24      And you think your best recollection was
25 that it's possibly around 6, huh?
26A.    That's an estimate.
27Q.    And when you came back with Lange, which
28 gate did you pull to at that time?
 
   178
 1A.    I believe that I repositioned the police
 2 car after allowing him to exit within this small
 3 intersection at the same place where I had initially
 4 put it in the first place or the first time.
 5Q.    Where did you allow Lange to exit?
 6A.    I believe within the -- the intersection.
 7Q.    In the area of the intersection of
 8 Ashford and Rockingham?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    And did you watch where he went?
11A.    No, I turned the vehicle around and
12 parked it.
13Q.    Did you ever ask Lange if one of the
14 unmarked LAPD vehicles that was parked there when you
15 left was one of his vehicles and why he couldn't drive
16 himself to Bundy?
17A.    No.
18Q.    And how long did this round trip to Bundy
19 take to deliver Lange and leave him there for ten
20 minutes?
21A.    Approximately 15 or 20 minutes.
22Q.    And then you stayed at Rockingham for how
23 long?
24A.    I believe until approximately 8:00, a
25 little after.
26Q.    And that's when you took Kato Kaelin to
27 West LAPD?
28A.    Yes.
 
   179
 1Q.    And who told to you do that?
 2A.    I don't believe I was told directly.  I
 3 believe that Officer Gonzalez had been told by one of
 4 the investigators who then relayed that information to
 5 me that that's what we would be doing.
 6Q.    Is it your best estimate you got back
 7 about 7:30 from Bundy?
 8A.    To Rockingham?
 9Q.    Yeah.
10      Or is it 6:30.  If you say you left at 6,
11 it was a half hour trip, 6:30?
12A.    I don't know.  I'm trying to give you a
13 best estimate.
14Q.    Did anybody else -- did you meet up with
15 anybody else at Rockingham during the time that you
16 were there?
17A.    As a police officer or as a citizen?
18Q.    A citizen.  Anybody.
19A.    There were people who were starting to
20 congregate now.
21Q.    Well, was there anybody that you kept out
22 of the compound?
23A.    Mr. Cowlings did arrive later in the
24 morning, prior to his leaving, and he was prevented
25 from going inside the property.
26Q.    Which way did Al Cowlings come?
27A.    From Sunset.
28Q.    On Rockingham?
 
   180
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    And you were standing in the area of the
 3 intersection so you could view the Bronco and you
 4 could view down Ashford, correct?
 5A.    By the time that Mr. Cowlings arrived I
 6 was back more towards the vehicle, the police vehicle
 7 which was --
 8Q.    On Rockingham?
 9A.    Somewhat farther north.
10Q.    And at what time did Al Cowlings arrive?
11A.    Approximately 7:30, 7:45.
12Q.    And so you obviously had to be back from
13 this excursion over to Bundy with Detective Lange by
14 then, right?
15A.    Yes.
16Q.    Did you -- by the way, did you ever see
17 Detective Lange again after you dropped him off when
18 you returned to Rockingham?
19A.    I don't remember.  I don't know.
20Q.    Now, when you were -- when you were
21 standing out there on Rockingham in the early morning
22 hours of June 13, 1994, that's a pretty quiet area,
23 isn't it?
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    And you heard Mr. Cowlings' vehicle
26 before you saw it, correct?
27A.    I remembered the vehicle approaching me
28 fairly rapidly.  I don't know whether I heard it first
 
   181
 1 or saw it first.
 2Q.    Did it have its lights on or do you
 3 recall?
 4A.    I don't recall.
 5Q.    It was a white Ford Bronco just like the
 6 one you were guarding, wasn't it?
 7A.    Very similar.
 8Q.    And so you restrained Mr. Cowlings from
 9 going in the property, correct?
10A.    Yes.
11Q.    And then you let him in after a little
12 while, true?
13A.    I don't think so.  I don't remember him
14 going inside.
15Q.    Didn't you report to anybody that there
16 was a -- any of the detectives inside the property
17 that there was a black male named Al Cowlings that had
18 been requested to come to the property?
19A.    Not personally, no.
20Q.    Did you report it to Dennis Gonzalez or
21 did you report it to the detectives?
22A.    Officer Gonzalez was with me.
23Q.    All right.
24      Did he report to anybody inside that
25 Al Cowlings had been requested to come to the property
26 and could he enter the property?
27A.    I don't know if Officer Gonzalez radioed
28 to one of the investigators that Mr. Cowlings had
 
   182
 1 arrived.
 2Q.    Now, you left -- did you say about 8,
 3 8:10?
 4A.    I believe so.
 5Q.    And was any criminalist there before you
 6 left?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    Who?
 9A.    I believe his name is Mr. Fung.
10Q.    Did you talk to Mr. Fung?
11A.    No.
12Q.    Did you do anything relative to Mr. Fung?
13      In other words, did you observe him do
14 anything, did you talk to Gonzalez about anything that
15 Fung was doing?
16A.    I saw Mr. Fung apply a Q Tip towards or
17 onto the door handle of the Bronco.
18Q.    Did you see Mr. Fung apply a Q Tip onto
19 the door sill or the area between where the bottom
20 door sill is to see if there was any blood in that
21 area?
22A.    Not distinctly.
23Q.    Well, indistinctly?  Did you see it at
24 all?
25A.    I couldn't be certain to say yes, but
26 I -- I'm not sure.
27Q.    Now, at any time did you see anybody get
28 in the Bronco and pull the hood release and open the
 
   183
 1 hood of the Bronco while you were there?
 2A.    No.
 3MR. BAKER:  Is this 1252, 1187?
 4MR. P. BAKER:  Supposed to be.
 5     (The instrument herein described
 6     as copy of impound report was
 7     marked for identification as
 8     Defendant's Exhibit No. 1187.)
 9
10Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  1187.  This is a vehicle
11 impound report, correct?
12A.    Yes.
13Q.    And do you see over here -- in other
14 words, there's certain things that you check on the
15 vehicle impound report so that after the vehicle has
16 been impounded you can tell if those things have been
17 taken or they're missing, correct?
18      For example, it says the seats,
19 inventory, seats, front seats, and yes is checked,
20 correct?
21A.    Yes.
22Q.    And what you do as a police officer in --
23 in impounding a vehicle is go through the checklist
24 that's on that impound report and make sure you
25 inventory everything that's on the impound report so
26 that in fact it can be ascertained at a later date
27 whether or not all of that equipment was there when
28 the vehicle was actually impounded, true?
 
   184
 1A.    That's the premise, yes.
 2Q.    And that's so that the LAPD can't be held
 3 responsible if there's no back seat, for example, if
 4 an owner comes back after it's been impounded and
 5 says, hey, we had a back seat, that kind of thing?
 6A.    Yes.
 7Q.    That's just one of them.
 8      Okay.
 9      Now, under the one, two, three -- I guess
10 it's the fourth column where it says battery,
11 alternator, generator, you see that?
12A.    Yes.
13Q.    It's checked yes, isn't it?
14A.    Yes, it is.
15Q.    The only way you can tell whether there's
16 an alternator or battery in this car is if you pop the
17 hood?
18MR. MEDVENE:  Excuse me, that misstates.  It
19 says UNK.  Doesn't say yes.  It says UNK.
20MR. BAKER:  I have a different report.
21MR. MEDVENE:  May I see the report?
22MR. BAKER:  I have a different report.
23MR. MEDVENE:  This is a report from Officers
24 Ashton and Gonzalez.  It says UNK, unknown.
25      No indication that this is this officer's
26 report.  Mr. Baker, here's the other exhibit, Gonzalez
27 and Ashton.  No indication when that report was done,
28 whether it was done at the impound.  Here's another --
 
   185
 1 here's the report you want to use, the real report
 2 right here.
 3MR. BAKER:  Awful flip today, aren't we?
 4MR. MEDVENE:  I'm learning from you, Mr. Baker.
 5
 6Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Let me show you this
 7 report.
 8      At 6/13, that's the date you were there,
 9 right, 1994?
10A.    Yes.
11Q.    At 1530 hours, right?
12A.    That's what it indicates, yes.
13MR. BAKER:  Let me do the questioning.  I don't
14 get paid as much as you do.
15
16      (Indicating to Mr. Medvene.)
17
18MR. MEDVENE:  I was trying to ask counsel.  May
19 I ask through the Court, is that the report that we
20 just furnished to Mr. Baker?  If it is and they have a
21 copy, I don't have a copy now because that's my copy.
22      Can I approach the witness, Your Honor?
23THE CLERK:  Do you have an exhibit number for
24 this?  Is it 1187?  Is that the same report we're
25 talking about?
26MR. MEDVENE:  If the Court please, there's no
27 indication this witness has ever seen that impound
28 report.  I would like -- we object to the question on
 
   186
 1 lack of foundation.
 2THE COURT:  Okay, lay a foundation.
 3Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Now, that vehicle was
 4 impounded about 1530 hours on the date of
 5 June 13, 1994; isn't that correct, sir?
 6      It stayed there from 7:30 in the morning
 7 until 3:30 in the afternoon; isn't that true?
 8A.    If this copy is accurate, then that's
 9 what it would indicate, yes.
10Q.    And on that report that you have in front
11 of you, it's indicated that the battery is in place
12 and that the alternator is in place, correct?
13THE COURT:  I believe there was an objection to
14 this particular exhibit.  Without foundation,
15 sustained.
16Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Well, in any event, you
17 would agree the only way that you can determine
18 whether or not the battery or alternator is in the
19 vehicle is to pop the hood, correct?
20A.    I don't know whether it's possible to
21 crawl underneath a vehicle and look up through there
22 to find that out.
23Q.    You ever done that when you impounded a
24 vehicle, looked underneath to see if you can see the
25 battery?
26A.    No.
27Q.    Usually the battery sits up at the top,
28 if you have to have wa-wa, you have a little wa-wa,
 
   187
 1 right?
 2A.    I'm not sure what wa-wa is.
 3Q.    Water, H20.
 4      Kind of sits up there where you can get
 5 at it?
 6A.    Sure, yes.
 7Q.    And the alternator is kind of up on top.
 8      You know what an alternator is; kind of
 9 sits on top, right?
10A.    Yes.
11Q.    In the Ford Bronco vehicle there's an
12 interior hood release; is there not?
13A.    I believe so.
14Q.    And the only way at 1530 hours that
15 anybody could determine whether or not there was an
16 alternator or a battery in that vehicle is to have
17 been in the car, popped the hood release and looked;
18 isn't that true?
19MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, Your Honor, assumes
20 facts not in evidence that anybody at 330 hours said
21 anything about the car and had an alternator.
22THE COURT:  I don't think that was the
23 question.
24      Overruled.
25A.    I'm not super familiar with the interior
26 design and the engine compartment of the Frod Bronco,
27 but I would assume that you're correct.
28MR. BAKER:  That's all I have for right now,
 
   188
 1 Your Honor.
 2
 3   CROSS-EXAMINATION
 4 BY MR. MEDVENE:
 5Q.    Officer Aston, I want to show you a
 6 document headed at the top Los Angeles Police
 7 Department Vehicle Investigation Report.
 8THE CLERK:  Do you need a new number?
 9MR. MEDVENE:  Yeah.
10THE CLERK:  2306.
11MR. MEDVENE:  2306.
12     (The instrument herein described
13     as Document entitled Los Angeles
14     Police Department Vehicle
15     Investigation Report was marked
16     for identification as Plaintiffs'
17     Exhibit No. 2306.)
18
19Q.    (BY MR. MEDVENE)  Can you look at that
20 report and let me know who submitted that report?
21A.    It's noted that Officer Gonzalez and
22 myself initiated the report.
23Q.    And is -- is that the impound report that
24 you were making reference to earlier that was being
25 prepared while you were watching the Bronco?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    And what does that impound report show
28 next to the words alternator and battery?
 
   189
 1A.    Indicates that it's unknown.
 2Q.    Was one of your jobs or assignments while
 3 you were at Rockingham to keep the Bronco in view at
 4 all times?
 5A.    Yes.
 6Q.    And did you do that?
 7A.    Yes.
 8Q.    And from approximately what time to
 9 approximately what time did you keep the Bronco within
10 sight?
11A.    From before 6:00 when the investigators
12 entered onto the property, a brief break as I
13 transported Detective Lange to Bundy, and then from
14 that point up until we finally left the location for
15 good.  That would be between, perhaps 5:45, 6 o'clock
16 and 8:00 or a little later.
17Q.    And during that period of time, did
18 you -- while you were watching the vehicle, did you
19 ever observe anyone enter the vehicle?
20A.    Nobody entered the vehicle.
21Q.    Ever observe anyone try to enter the
22 vehicle?
23A.    Nobody touched the vehicle.
24Q.    And prior to the time you left, and
25 included within the time you were watching the
26 vehicle, you yourself looked at the vehicle, as I
27 understand your answer to his -- Mr. Baker's
28 questions; is that correct?
 
   190
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    And you observed blood inside the vehicle
 3 where you told Mr. Baker you observed blood inside the
 4 Bronco or what appeared to be blood; is that correct?
 5A.    Yes.
 6Q.    Now, you never entered the premise; is
 7 that right Officer Aston?
 8A.    That's correct.
 9Q.    And while some -- as I recall your
10 testimony, 15 to 30 minutes after the officers
11 originally entered you saw some officers and Ms.
12 Simpson, were you in a position where if there was any
13 conversation you could overhear it?
14A.    No.
15Q.    After the officers entered and during
16 that 15 to 30 minutes before you again saw the
17 officers with Ms. Simpson, do you know whether or not
18 the officers with Ms. Simpson entered the Rockingham
19 house from the rear?
20      Do you know one way or the other?
21A.    No, I don't.
22Q.    Is it correct, sir, that you're not
23 saying Detective Fuhrman did not go over the wall, you
24 were just saying you didn't observe him while he was
25 going over the wall?
26MR. BAKER:  Your Honor, this is leading.
27THE COURT:  Overruled.
28A.    I don't recall him scaling the wall or
 
   191
 1 climbing a fence.  I may have observed it.  I just
 2 don't remember seeing it.
 3Q.    So you're not saying he didn't do it,
 4 you're saying only you didn't see it?
 5A.    That's correct.
 6MR. BAKER:  I object.  That misstates his
 7 testimony.
 8THE COURT:  Sustained.
 9MR. BAKER:  Move that the answer be stricken.
10THE COURT:  He didn't see it, it may remain.
11Q.    (BY MR. MEDVENE)  So the record is clear,
12 Officer Aston, are you saying now, at this point, that
13 you -- you are not saying Detective Fuhrman didn't go
14 over the wall, you didn't see him when he went over
15 the wall?
16THE COURT:  Why don't you ask a question, Mr.
17 Medvene, instead of trying to testify for him.
18MR. MEDVENE:  Yes, Your Honor.
19Q.    (BY MR. MEDVENE)  Do you know whether or
20 not Detective Fuhrman went over the wall at some
21 point, that you did not observe?
22A.    Yes --
23Q.    You say what --
24A.    -- I know that he went over the wall or
25 climbed a fence, but I don't recall him doing that.
26Q.    In your presence?
27A.    Correct.
28MR. BAKER:  Can I get that last answer reread,
 
   192
 1 please.
 2MR. MEDVENE:  Thank you very much.  I have
 3 nothing further.
 4
 5     (Court reporter attempts to reread
 6     testimony but is unable to read
 7     loud enough due to laryngitis.)
 8
 9     (Laughter.)
10
11THE COURT:  Sorry.  Mr. Baker, maybe you could
12 go over.
13MR. BAKER:  I'll peer over your shoulder.
14
15    (Indicating to court reporter.)
16     (Mr. Baker reviewed computer real
17     time screen.)
18
19       REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. BAKER:
21Q.    So your testimony here in this courtroom,
22 Officer Aston, is you may have seen him go over the
23 wall, you just don't recall it, right?
24A.    That's correct.
25MR. MEDVENE:  Objection, that misstates his
26 testimony.
27THE COURT:  Overruled.
28Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Now, how many times in
 
   193
 1 your career have you watched officers clamber over a
 2 wall into an estate of a celebrity?
 3A.    I can't recall any other time.
 4Q.    You just kind of went blank on seeing
 5 Fuhrman going over the wall; you just don't know
 6 whether he did or didn't, right?
 7A.    It's three years ago.  I haven't
 8 testified before.
 9MR. BAKER:  I apologize, Your Honor, I have to
10 reopen on one small area.
11THE COURT:  Um-hum.
12Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  Where you were standing
13 when you say you saw the smear on the console, were
14 you and the other six LAPD members over on the
15 driver's side of the vehicle?
16A.    I can't recall whether it was on the
17 left-hand side or the right-hand side or the passenger
18 side or the driver's seat side of the console.
19      I can -- I remember distinctly when
20 seeing it, knowing that it probably had occurred or
21 had been applied when the driver had utilized the
22 console as a booster to be able to exit the vehicle,
23 but I -- but I can't recall whether it was a passenger
24 side seat or the driver side.
25Q.    So what you recall is it was right in the
26 center, right?
27      Let me show you a photo that was taken on
28 August 14 --
 
   194
 1MR. P. BAKER:  10th.
 2Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  August 10, 1994.
 3MR. P. BAKER:  Exhibit 1420.
 4Q.    (BY MR. BAKER)  If you look at the
 5 monitor, sir, this is taken obviously from the
 6 passenger side of the vehicle.
 7      Is it your testimony that the blood stain
 8 was on the center console in the indented area?
 9A.    No, sir; it was -- I said it was either
10 on the side, right side or the left side of the
11 console.
12Q.    This or that, correct?
13A.    Yes.
14Q.    In other words, where somebody would wrap
15 their hand around the edge of the console to, as you
16 say, boost themselves out of the vehicle?
17A.    That's the impression I got, yes.
18Q.    You don't have a recollection whether it
19 was on the driver's side or the passenger's side,
20 correct?
21A.    That's correct.
22Q.    How big was it, two inches by four
23 inches?
24      Was it a quarter inch by an eighth of an
25 inch?
26      What did you see?
27A.    I believe it was a -- perhaps
28 three-quarters of an inch wide, perhaps, a little more
 
   195
 1 or less, and approximately three inches, four inches
 2 long.
 3Q.    And you saw absolutely no blood drops on
 4 the indented area, because that's exactly where you
 5 were looking when you looked into that Bronco, true?
 6A.    I don't recall seeing any blood drops on
 7 the exact center of the console.
 8Q.    When I say "exact center," I mean
 9 anyplace on the top portion of the console, including
10 the indented area and down, as it slopes down towards
11 the front of the vehicle.
12      Do you see any blood drops in there
13 whatsoever, sir?
14A.    From this picture, no, I don't.
15Q.    Did you, on June 13, 1994, see any blood
16 drops on that center console?
17A.    Blood drops, no.
18Q.    And you don't see any blood smears on
19 that console, on, certainly, on the right-hand side,
20 do you?
21A.    That's correct.
22Q.    You don't see any blood in that picture
23 whatsoever, do you?
24A.    Well, the focus isn't so sharp; but no, I
25 don't.
26Q.    It was your testimony that the blood drop
27 that you say you saw was in front of the instrument
28 panel, in between the steering wheel and the
 
   196
 1 windshield, right?
 2A.    Yes.
 3MR. BAKER:  Nothing further.
 4MR. MEDVENE:  Nothing further.
 5      We'd move in 2306.
 6MR. P. BAKER:  We'd move in 1801.
 7MR. MEDVENE:  What's 1801?
 8MR. P. BAKER:  His report, Phillips'.
 9THE COURT:  Okay.  Received.
10
11     (The instrument previously marked
12     as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2306 was
13     received in evidence.)
14
15     (The instrument previously marked
16     as Defendants' Exhibit 1801 was
17     received in evidence.)
18
19
20THE COURT:  Ten minutes' recess, ladies and
21 gentlemen.
22      Don't talk about the case.  Don't form or
23 express an opinion.
24
25    (Recess.)
26
27MR. P. BAKER:  Defense calls Otis Marlow.
28
 
   197
 1
 2      OTIS MARLOW
 3 was called as a witness on behalf of the Defendants,
 4 was duly sworn, and testified as follows:
 5
 6
 7
 8THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the
 9 testimony you may give in the cause now pending before
10 this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
11 nothing but the truth, so help you God?
12THE WITNESS:  I do.
13THE CLERK:  And, sir, would you please state
14 and spell your name for the record.
15THE WITNESS:  My name is Otis Marlow, O-t-i-s
16 M-a-r-l-o-w.
17
18   DIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. P. BAKER:
20Q.    Good afternoon, Mr. Marlow.
21A.    Afternoon, sir.
22Q.    Where are you currently employed?
23A.    I'm a private investigator.  I work for
24 Gailey & Associates.
25Q.    That's a private investigator firm?
26A.    Yes.
27Q.    Do a number of LAPD officers work for
28 that firm?
 
   198
 1A.    Yes, sir.
 2Q.    When did you start working for Grailey &
 3 Associates?
 4A.    I think it's approximately one year ago
 5 today.
 6Q.    January of 1996?
 7A.    Yes, sir.
 8Q.    When did you retire from the Los Angeles
 9 Police Department?
10A.    January '95.
11Q.    And you receive pension benefits from the
12 LAPD?
13A.    Yes, sir.
14Q.    And as I understand it, when you were
15 working at the Los Angeles Police Department, you were
16 work in the Robbery/Homicide Division?
17A.    Yes, sir.
18Q.    And, in fact, you assisted in the
19 investigation of the crimes at 875 South Bundy, did
20 you not?
21A.    Yes, sir.
22Q.    Do you know of any policy of the Los
23 Angeles Police Department that prohibits a cop from --
24 retiring from them being paid for work he did when he
25 was a public employee?
26A.    No, sir.
27Q.    You don't think it's a conflict of
28 interest, Mr. Marlow?
 
   199
 1A.    No, sir; it's not.
 2Q.    You can't envision a situation where a
 3 cop can retire and then offer his services to either
 4 side for work he did while he was a cop?
 5A.    Yes, sir.
 6Q.    You don't think that's a conflict of
 7 interest?
 8MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.  Relevance.  Calls for
 9 speculation.
10THE COURT:  Sustained.
11Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  When did you first
12 start working on the investigation of the crimes at
13 875 South Bundy?
14A.    Approximately a day or two after the
15 discovery of the crimes.
16Q.    As I understand it, you attended a
17 squad-room meeting with Lieutenant Bowen and
18 Lieutenant Rodgers?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    At that meeting, a number of
21 robbery/homicide detectives were there, correct?
22A.    Yes, sir.
23Q.    And how many robbery/homicide detectives
24 were there in June of 1994?
25A.    In robbery, I'm not exactly sure of the
26 number.  I don't want to mislead you.
27      I think the entire division has 75 sworn
28 personnel work there, but in the homicide section, I
 
   200
 1 think there may be 25 or 30 of us that work homicide,
 2 and it's broken up into two squads.
 3Q.    A couple days after the crimes,
 4 Lieutenant Bowen and Lieutenant Rodgers got the
 5 robbery/homicide detectives in the squad room?
 6A.    I don't think -- I don't want to mislead
 7 you.  I did speak to the lieutenant about the case.
 8Q.    Okay.
 9      Well, there were a number of detectives
10 in that meeting, weren't there?
11A.    You know, there were a lot of meetings
12 over the time.  I just don't want to mislead you at
13 all.
14      I'm not sure how many people were
15 present.  I don't know there was really a meeting or
16 anything.  There were several detectives that worked
17 at my table.  I worked the major crime section.  All
18 the lieutenant asked us to, help us with -- lots of
19 clues were coming in -- and to help us work the clues.
20      And so I said, sure, I will.
21Q.    He also asked that if any of the
22 detectives had free time, to try to assist in the
23 investigation, didn't he?
24A.    By working the clues, that's what he
25 meant.
26Q.    Only the clues?
27A.    Yes, sir.
28Q.    He didn't ask you to -- the detectives at
 
   201
 1 any other time to assist in the investigation, right?
 2A.    I don't -- I'm not sure I understood
 3 that.
 4Q.    Mr. Marlow, did Lieutenant Bowen or
 5 Lieutenant Rodgers, at that squad-room meeting, ask
 6 any of the detectives if they had free time, to assist
 7 in the investigation?
 8A.    Yes.  "In the investigation" would be
 9 working the clues.
10Q.    Okay.
11A.    We didn't handle the investigation.  They
12 had assigned detectives to that, Vannatter and Lange,
13 and it is another squad completely, to help with the
14 investigation as part of the clues.  That's what I
15 worked.
16Q.    You just worked the clues in the
17 investigation at the crime scene of 875 South Bundy,
18 right?
19A.    Yes, sir.
20Q.    You worked -- strike that.
21      What was clue detail?
22A.    Clue detail is, a lot of clues would come
23 in constantly.  People would phone in various clues as
24 to -- regarding the crime.  And some would be, you
25 know, obviously, very kind of silly, and others
26 would -- they might be something to investigate.
27      But whatever the clue was, it was
28 assigned to a detective.  And we tried to run out the
 
   202
 1 clue to the -- to the end there and write a report as
 2 to what we did.
 3Q.    So as I understand it, you take the phone
 4 calls.
 5      This was a pretty high-profile case,
 6 wasn't it?
 7A.    Yes, sir.
 8Q.    And you would sit in the -- down in
 9 Parker Center; you'd receive some calls; and if you
10 thought the calls had merit, you'd follow up on them,
11 right?
12A.    No.  Every call that came in was some
13 kind of a clue, was written down.  It wasn't up to me
14 to determine the merit of the clue.  We write the clue
15 down, and whatever the person may say or whatever the
16 clue may be.  And we'd write it down just as they told
17 it to you, so another investigator could pick it up.
18      I didn't receive all of the clues.  I
19 mean, I did take some.  People would call in; I'd
20 write it down.
21      But we have a section in the police
22 department called detective headquarters.  They're
23 open 24 hours a day.  And clues would go into their
24 office, also.  And we have a special form -- it's an
25 LAPD form -- because --
26Q.    The "We Tip" form?
27A.    Very similar to "We Tip."
28Q.    What you do is turn in the form to the
 
   203
 1 lead investigator, who was -- who was it, Commander
 2 Watts at that time?
 3A.    Well, it was -- it was Detective Watts.
 4 And he was designated by Lieutenant Rodgers, who was a
 5 squad leader.  Lieutenant Rodgers made Watts the --
 6 what we call -- they call the clue complaint captain,
 7 but he is a detective.
 8      And all the clues went to him, so we
 9 could log all the clues in, so everybody -- everything
10 can be logged and distributed out to investigators
11 that were working the clues.
12Q.    So if you got a clue that you thought
13 would have merit, you'd write it down and you'd submit
14 it?
15A.    Right.
16Q.    And then from -- even if it -- then would
17 you have to wait for orders from a superior before
18 you'd follow up on that clue, right?
19A.    I'm not sure.  I didn't quite understand.
20Q.    You had a clue that you thought had
21 merit, you'd write it down and submit it; true?
22A.    That's right.
23Q.    You wouldn't follow up on it on your own?
24A.    That's correct.
25Q.    And then you'd have to wait for a
26 response by one of the superiors before you could ever
27 do any work on the incoming clue, true?
28A.    That's correct.
 
   204
 1Q.    How many detectives were working clue
 2 detail approximately one to two weeks after the
 3 crimes?
 4MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.  Relevance, Your
 5 Honor.
 6MR. PETROCELLI:  We also have order number 8
 7 that applies here.
 8THE COURT:  Sustained.  You may ask this
 9 witness what he did.
10Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  Did you ever have any
11 meetings with any other detectives about the clues you
12 were following?
13A.    Sure.
14Q.    How many?
15A.    Probably -- there were about, in my
16 section of the table, there were about four guys, four
17 detectives, and we were working together on my squad.
18 And we even talk about this:  Listen, I've got to do
19 this clue or that clue, try to coordinate things
20 between us.
21Q.    You weren't the only four detectives
22 following up clues?
23A.    No, there were more than us.
24Q.    You never had any of the meetings with
25 any of the other officers following up the clues,
26 true?
27A.    I'm sure we spoke.  I can't remember
28 exactly what meetings we might have had or anything
 
   205
 1 like that, but we did speak among each other.  We did
 2 not not communicate; we always try to communicate.
 3Q.    There were no formal meetings between all
 4 the detectives following up on clue detail, correct?
 5MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.  Relevance.
 6THE COURT:  Sustained.
 7Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  You didn't just work
 8 sewer detail -- clue detail; you also worked in the
 9 sewers in this investigation, didn't you?
10A.    Yes, sir, I did.
11Q.    And what did that involve, Officer
12 Marlow?
13      Or, you don't go by "officer" anymore,
14 correct?
15A.    You can call me anything, sir.  That's
16 fine.
17Q.    Mr. Marlow, what did sewer detail
18 involve?
19A.    There was four of us on the sewer detail:
20 Myself, Detective Bercham, Detective Quak and my
21 partner, Dave Martin.  And what I -- what we did is,
22 that we tried to search all of the sewers and look in
23 all the sewers from Bundy to Rockingham in various
24 routes in various streets.  We searched all of the
25 sewers, slid into what we could.  Then, some of them,
26 you can't get into, we put our flashlight into it, in
27 a search for evidence.
28      This is a day or two after the crime.
 
   206
 1Q.    You were looking for anything suspicious?
 2A.    That's right.
 3Q.    You never found any?
 4A.    No, sir.
 5Q.    Did you take any notes of that sewer
 6 detail?
 7A.    Yeah, there were notes taken.  I took
 8 some notes as to what streets we were on, either
 9 myself or Dave Martin did, my partner.
10      I don't have any specific recollection as
11 to where the notes are now.  I don't know if I turned
12 them in or --
13Q.    You have no recollection of turning those
14 notes in?
15A.    Oh no, sir.  No.
16Q.    Did you -- you also worked on the --
17 well, strike that.
18      You also attended a block-party meeting
19 around 360 North Rockingham a couple weeks after the
20 crime?
21A.    It wasn't a block party.
22Q.    It was a block meeting?
23A.    It was a --
24Q.    Homeowners --
25A.    -- block club meeting.
26Q.    Who ordered you to do that?
27A.    No one.
28Q.    You just went on your own?
 
   207
 1A.    We were invited.
 2Q.    By whom?
 3A.    The lady that was putting on the block --
 4 not party, but the block meeting.
 5Q.    And she called you?
 6A.    It was a neighborhood watch.  It's a
 7 neighborhood watch type of meeting.
 8Q.    She called you up personally, Mr. Marlow,
 9 and asked you to come?
10A.    No, not me.
11Q.    This was a high-profile case and you were
12 trying to do anything to get involved with it, weren't
13 you?
14A.    No, sir.  I -- that's all I handle is
15 high-profile cases, every case I handle.  This is just
16 among one of them.  But I've worked homicide for 20
17 years.
18Q.    The Simpson criminal case had about the
19 same media attention as all the other cases you've
20 handled, right?
21      Is that what you're telling this jury?
22A.    No, sir; that's not true.
23Q.    You take any notes at that block meeting?
24A.    No, sir.
25Q.    That wasn't clue detail, was it?
26A.    No, sir.
27Q.    You also were at the -- strike that.
28      You also interviewed the gardners behind
 
   208
 1 Mr. Simpson's residence?
 2A.    Yes, sir.
 3Q.    No one told to you do that, did they?
 4A.    No, sir.
 5Q.    You didn't take any notes of that, did
 6 you?
 7A.    No, sir.
 8Q.    You interviewed the neighbors of
 9 Mr. Simpson, correct?
10A.    Yes.
11Q.    You didn't take any notes of that, did
12 you?
13A.    No, sir.
14Q.    You interviewed Mr. Simpson's neighbor's
15 housekeeper, correct?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    Didn't take any notes of that, did you?
18A.    No, sir.
19Q.    Who ordered to you do that?
20A.    Nobody.
21Q.    You just did it on your own?
22A.    Yes, sir.
23Q.    And lots of other detectives were running
24 out in the city on their own inclination because this
25 is a high-profile case, true?
26A.    No.
27MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.
28Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  You worked the June 28
 
   209
 1 search?
 2A.    Yes, sir.
 3Q.    Did you take any notes of that?
 4A.    No, sir.
 5Q.    I want to show you a picture, Mr. Marlow.
 6MR. P. BAKER:  Mark it next in order.
 7THE CLERK:  2307.
 8
 9     (The instrument herein referred to
10     as Photograph of Mr. Marlow in
11     closet was marked for
12     identification as Defendant's
13     Exhibit No. 2307.)
14
15Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  Is that you,
16 Mr.  Marlow?
17    (Indicating to picture shown on the
18     Elmo screen.)
19
20A.    Yes, sir, it is.
21MR. P. BAKER:  Steve, can you zoom in on
22 Mr. Marlow's hand.
23Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  That is Mr. Simpson's
24 closet, by the way, isn't it?
25A.    Yes, this is his closet.
26Q.    What is that in you left hand,
27 Mr. Marlow?
28A.    I don't know.
 
   210
 1Q.    It's a note pad, isn't it?
 2A.    Yes, sir.
 3Q.    You ever submit those notes?
 4A.    No, sir.
 5Q.    Does that refresh your recollection that
 6 you did take notes on that day?
 7A.    No, sir.
 8Q.    That doesn't?
 9A.    No, sir.
10      I always carry a notebook like that.
11 I've got one with me.
12Q.    You always walking around with it opened
13 up?
14A.    No, sir, I don't always do that.
15      I probably made a notation, but I don't
16 know what it is or why.
17Q.    Is that a pencil in your left hand?
18A.    Yes, sir.
19Q.    You know why you didn't turn in those
20 notes, Mr. Marlow?
21A.    No, sir.
22Q.    You also work --
23      By the way, who from West L.A. -- which
24 detectives from the West L.A. department were at the
25 June 28 search?  Do you recall?
26A.    Yes.  Detective Roberts, Detective
27 Fuhrman.  There was a female detective there, and I
28 don't recall her name.
 
   211
 1      There could have been others.
 2      I didn't know those two until after that
 3 case or after that search.
 4Q.    Detective Fuhrman was in the bedroom with
 5 you, wasn't he, during the search warrants?
 6A.    Yes.
 7Q.    Detective Phillips was in the bedroom
 8 with you during the search?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    You understood the robbery/homicide
11 division had taken over the case 15 days ago?
12      You were aware of that, weren't you?
13A.    Yes, sir.
14Q.    Did it ever cross your mind what Fuhrman
15 and Phillips were doing there, because authority had
16 transferred to HRD 15 days earlier --
17MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.  Relevance, whether it
18 crossed his mind.
19THE COURT:  Sustained.
20Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  Now, you also searched
21 along the southern walkway on June 28, didn't you?
22A.    Yes, sir.
23Q.    You walked along --
24MR. P. BAKER:  Let me get a board real quick.
25      This is Exhibit 116.
26
27    (Exhibit displayed on the easel.)
28
 
   212
 1Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  You searched the
 2 area -- let me get out of the way -- down along the
 3 southern walkway on the fences toward the neighborhood
 4 yard, right?
 5A.    Yes, sir.
 6Q.    And what were you looking for?
 7A.    We were looking for maybe a knife, any
 8 blood, any clothing.
 9Q.    You didn't find anything, did you?
10A.    No, sir.
11Q.    Who ordered you to search along the
12 southern walkway?
13A.    I was just assisting the criminalist.  He
14 was in there working; I thought I'd help him.
15Q.    Which criminalist was that?
16A.    I don't know his name.
17Q.    You did that on your own?
18A.    Sure.
19Q.    You just walked over there and kind of
20 looked through the bushes to see if you could see any
21 blood or any weapon or any clothing, right?
22A.    I was with the criminalist.  Yes, I was
23 helping him out.  We help each other out.
24Q.    You did that without any orders?
25A.    Sure.  I don't have to be told everything
26 to do.  I try to help out as much as I can.
27Q.    No criminalist said no, wait; don't go in
28 there.
 
   213
 1      Did you have gloves on?
 2A.    No.
 3Q.    You did you have booties on?
 4A.    No.
 5Q.    You just went in there?
 6A.    This is all -- I have -- what you need in
 7 there is combat boots.  There's thick ivy in there.
 8Q.    You searched around.  You didn't see
 9 anything?
10A.    That's right.
11Q.    Did you take any notes of that?
12A.    No, sir.
13Q.    Now, you started working at
14 Gailey & Associates in January of '96, right?
15A.    Yes, sir.
16Q.    Since that time, you've been active in
17 assisting the plaintiffs in the civil case, right?
18A.    That's correct.
19Q.    You helped prepare witnesses, haven't
20 you?
21A.    Yes, sir.
22Q.    You've called up people like Officer
23 Marlow and told him what questions to be wary of?
24MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.
25A.    I didn't call myself up.
26MR. PETROCELLI:  He's Officer Marlow.
27MR. P. BAKER:  It's the vacation.
28Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  Officer Ashton?
 
   214
 1A.    I didn't call him up; no, sir.
 2Q.    You never called Officer Ashton?
 3A.    Oh, I talked to him in person.
 4Q.    When did you do that?
 5A.    I don't know.  It's been about three
 6 weeks ago, I guess.
 7Q.    What did you tell him?
 8A.    I just told him I was investigating; I
 9 worked for the Goldman family, plaintiffs' attorneys;
10 I was investigating the case, and I wanted to know
11 what part he played in it.
12Q.    That's all you asked him?
13A.    Yes, sir.
14Q.    You didn't tell him what type of
15 questions he may be asked when he was on the stand?
16A.    Well, I just -- no.  We -- I didn't
17 know -- I didn't know what question --
18Q.    That's a yes or no.
19      Yes, you didn't tell him what questions
20 he should be looking out for, right?
21A.    No, sir.
22Q.    Did you -- how long did this conversation
23 last?
24A.    This was at West L.A. station.  Probably
25 an hour or so, maybe a little longer.
26Q.    Did you tell him you were a -- you were a
27 former cop?
28A.    I don't know that I did or not.  I may
 
   215
 1 have.
 2      I mean, I'm proud of the fact that I was
 3 a police officer.
 4Q.    I'm very happy.
 5A.    I may have told him that.
 6MR. GELBLUM:  Ask Mr. Baker's comments be
 7 stricken.
 8THE COURT:  Stricken.
 9Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  Did you tell him that
10 the defense was going to ask him about his
11 observations of the Bronco of June -- on June 13,
12 1994?
13A.    Yes, sir.
14Q.    Did you tell him that the defense was
15 going to ask him about his whereabouts on the morning
16 of June 13, '94?
17A.    Yes, sir.
18Q.    Did you tell him that the defense was
19 going to ask him about his observations of Gonzalez
20 and the dog on June 13, 1994?
21A.    Yes, sir.
22Q.    Did you tell him that they were going to
23 ask that -- the defense was going to ask Officer
24 Ashton about the vehicle impound in court?
25A.    On that -- yes, sir, on that, I may have.
26 Yes.
27Q.    Who told you to tell him all this?
28MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, Your Honor.  Work
 
   216
 1 product.
 2THE COURT:  Sustained.
 3Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  Since you started
 4 working on the civil case, you've had a number of
 5 contacts with the officers down at Parker Center,
 6 true?
 7A.    Yes, sir.
 8Q.    You called up -- when Phil Vannatter
 9 still worked there, you called him up and asked him
10 questions whenever you wanted to, right?
11A.    Yeah, I may have talked to Phil a lot.  I
12 don't remember what specific questions I may have
13 asked him.
14Q.    When Lange still worked there, you called
15 up Lange and asked him some questions?
16A.    Yes, sir.
17Q.    Tony, Lange's replacement, you'd call up
18 when you needed something or had questions?
19A.    If I had any questions, I'd ask him, yes.
20Q.    And you always got unequivocal assistance
21 from the LAPD when you needed help, right?
22A.    Depends on what I'd ask for.
23Q.    Well, what did you ask for that you
24 didn't get help on?
25A.    I'd never put them in a position to give
26 me something I shouldn't have.  I wouldn't do that.
27 As a police officer, I wouldn't ask them to do
28 anything like that.  Any information I got from them
 
   217
 1 would be anything that was already discoverable to
 2 both sides.
 3Q.    So you'd just call up Parker Center --
 4 strike that.
 5      You understand that 10,197 documents were
 6 turned over to the plaintiffs in November of '95 --
 7MR. GELBLUM:  That -- objection --
 8Q.    -- that weren't turned over to the
 9 defense until May of '96?
10THE COURT:  Objection sustained.  Jury to
11 disregard that question.
12Q.    (BY MR. P. BAKER)  Would it surprise you
13 that when the defense tried to contact L.A. Police
14 Department officers, they wouldn't give them the
15 courtesy of a return phone call?
16MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.  Relevance.
17THE COURT:  Sustained.
18MR. P. BAKER:  Nothing further.
19THE COURT:  Cross.
20
21   CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. GELBLUM:
23Q.    Mr. Marlow, were you asked to help out on
24 the sewer detail?
25A.    Yes, sir.  I just don't remember exactly
26 how it started up, whether it came in on the clue,
27 or -- I don't know how that -- that particular clue
28 developed or why we were even doing it.  Maybe we were
 
   218
 1 told to do it.  I don't remember.
 2      I remember doing it.  I'll never forget
 3 that.  I'm not sure whose idea it was to do that.
 4Q.    And were you asked to help out on the
 5 June 28 search?
 6A.    Oh, yes.
 7Q.    You didn't just walk over there one day
 8 and say, "Hi, guys; can I help out"?
 9A.    No.  They asked for volunteers for the
10 search.  They needed help.
11Q.    You went and volunteered?
12A.    Well, sure.
13Q.    And with all the work you did in this
14 case, did you respond to requests for help?
15A.    Yes, sir.
16MR. GELBLUM:  I have nothing further.
17MR. P. BAKER:  Nothing further.
18THE COURT:  You may step down.
19THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honor.
20MR. LEONARD:  Call Paul Tippin.
21
22      PAUL TIPPIN,
23 called as a witness on behalf of Defendants, was duly
24 sworn and testified as follows:
25
26THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the
27 testimony you may give in the cause now pending before
28 this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 
   219
 1 nothing but the truth, so help you God?
 2THE WITNESS:  I do.
 3THE CLERK:  And, sir, would you please state
 4 and spell your name.
 5THE WITNESS:  Paul S. Tippin, T-i-p-p-i-n.
 6
 7   DIRECT EXAMINATION
 8 BY MR. LEONARD:
 9Q.    Good afternoon, Mr. Tippin.
10A.    Good afternoon.
11Q.    How are you employed?
12A.    I'm currently employed for the Orange
13 County District Attorney's office as an investigator.
14Q.    How long have you had that position, sir?
15A.    For approximately a year.
16Q.    Now, have you ever worked for Gailey &
17 Associates?
18A.    Yes, I have.
19Q.    Okay.  And when did you first start
20 working for Gailey & Associates?
21A.    I went to work for Gailey & Associates
22 August 6, 1995.
23Q.    Okay.  And Gailey & Associates is a
24 private investigation firm; is that right, sir?
25A.    Yes, sir.
26Q.    Now, you were a Los Angeles police
27 officer for some period of time prior to working for
28 Grailey & Associates; is that correct?
 
   220
 1A.    Yes, sir.
 2Q.    How long were you employed at the Los
 3 Angeles Police Department?
 4A.    Twenty-six years.
 5Q.    And what was the highest rank that you
 6 attained, sir?
 7A.    Detective 3.
 8Q.    Okay.  And did you have any officer rank:
 9 Sergeant, lieutenant, captain?
10A.    It was rank of Detective 3.
11Q.    Okay.
12      So you weren't a lieutenant or captain?
13A.    No, sir.
14Q.    And you were assigned to what department
15 during the investigation of the Simpson case?
16A.    I was assigned to robbery/homicide
17 division, in the homicide special section.
18Q.    And you were involved to some degree in
19 the investigation of the crimes at 875 South Bundy; is
20 that right, sir?
21A.    Yes, sir.
22Q.    Now, were you ever engaged by the
23 plaintiff in this case to investigate anything dealing
24 with the civil case, sir?
25A.    Gailey Associates was hired by the firm,
26 yes.
27Q.    Okay.  And did you take part in any
28 investigation?
 
   221
 1A.    At the very beginning, yes.
 2Q.    And as part of that investigation, did
 3 you have some contact with a fellow -- or your former
 4 colleagues at the Los Angeles Police Department?
 5A.    I may have, yes.
 6Q.    Okay.
 7      Now, you certainly utilized the knowledge
 8 that you had obtained from your personal involvement
 9 in the criminal investigation when you were at the Los
10 Angeles Police Department, in your assistance of the
11 plaintiffs in this case; is that right, sir?
12A.    I would say so, yes.
13Q.    There's no question about that in your
14 mind, is there?
15A.    No.
16Q.    Now, one of the things that you did when
17 you were involved in the investigation of the killings
18 at 875 South Bundy was that you interviewed the watch
19 commander who was on duty on the night of June 12,
20 1994, correct?
21A.    No.
22Q.    Did you interview an individual named
23 Sergeant Merrin?
24A.    No.
25Q.    Remember that?
26A.    I don't remember that, no.
27Q.    Now, one of the things that -- are you
28 saying you didn't do it or you just don't have a
 
   222
 1 memory of it right now?
 2A.    I don't believe I did, but I don't have
 3 any recollection as to it.  If there's a report I
 4 could refresh my memory, maybe it would help, but I
 5 don't believe I did, no.
 6Q.    Let me see if I can refresh it in another
 7 way.
 8      Do you remember having a discussion with
 9 a Sergeant Merrin when he said to you --
10MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, hearsay.
11MR. LEONARD:  I'm trying to refresh his
12 recollection.  They've done that several times
13MR. PETROCELLI:  You can't get into the
14 contact, Your Honor.
15MR. GELBLUM:  They have done this several
16 times.
17THE COURT:  If you want to refresh his
18 recollection show him something.
19MR. LEONARD:  Show him something?
20MR. GELBLUM:  Without publishing.
21MR. LEONARD:  Fine.
22      May I approach?
23THE COURT:  You may.
24Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  I'll show you what will
25 be marked next in order.
26THE CLERK:  2308.
27MR. LEONARD:  2308.
28     (The instrument herein described
 
   223
 1     as a handwritten chronological log
 2     was marked for identification as
 3     Plaintiffs' Exhibit No.  2308.)
 4
 5Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  I show you that
 6 document 2308 and ask you to take a look at it and let
 7 me --
 8MR. LEONARD:  You know what, before I do that
 9 let me show it to you.
10MR. GELBLUM:  Thank you.
11MR. LEONARD:  I'm sorry, Mr. Gelblum.
12
13     (Mr. Gelblum reviews Exhibit
14     2308.)
15
16Q.    I show you what's been marked as 2308.
17 Take a look at that, take your time, and I'll ask you
18 some questions.
19
20     (Witness reviews Exhibit 2308.)
21
22A.    Okay.
23Q.    First of all, is that your handwriting,
24 sir?
25A.    Yes, sir, it is.
26Q.    Now, does that refresh your -- strike
27 that.
28      In generic terms, what is that?
 
   224
 1A.    This is my chronological log that I hand
 2 wrote.  It's not a statement, it's a chronological
 3 log.
 4Q.    I understand.
 5      But that is part of the record of the
 6 report that you created in this case to document, at
 7 least in part, what you did and what you found out,
 8 correct?
 9A.    It's my chronological log, yes.
10Q.    It's a report that you prepared, correct?
11A.    Yes.
12Q.    All right.
13      And you prepared that in the regular
14 course of your duties and your employment as a police
15 officer; isn't that right, sir?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    And that's a report that you regularly
18 prepare, don't you, something like that?
19A.    A chronological log as to what I did,
20 yes.
21Q.    You've done hundreds of those in cases
22 haven't you, sir?
23A.    I wouldn't say hundreds, but I've done a
24 lot.
25Q.    Okay.
26      Now, having read that, does that refresh
27 your recollection, sir, that you interviewed a
28 Sergeant Merrin?
 
   225
 1A.    No, it does not.
 2Q.    Did you interview a Sergeant Merrin?
 3A.    According to my log, I talked with him on
 4 the phone, yes.
 5Q.    Do you recall Sergeant Merrin telling you
 6 that he had received a call around 10:30 on June 12 --
 7 on the evening of June 12, 1994, in which a woman
 8 asked him if there had been a reported double homicide
 9 in West L.A., do you remember that?
10MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, hearsay.
11MR. LEONARD:  It's in the police report.
12MR. GELBLUM:  Your Honor, the phone call is
13 another level of hearsay.
14
15     (Court reviews real time screen.)
16
17THE COURT:  Sustained.
18Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Let me make sure I
19 understand your testimony.  That's your handwriting,
20 correct?
21A.    Correct.
22Q.    Have you ever heard of a Sergeant Merrin?
23A.    It's in my log, but I don't remember
24 specifically talking with him, no.
25Q.    Do you remember generally talking with
26 him?
27A.    Here again, there was so much going on.
28      It's in my log so I obviously talked with
 
   226
 1 him, but I do not generally remember talking to him,
 2 no.
 3Q.    Do you have any reason to believe that
 4 you would have put something in your log that you had
 5 not heard from Sergeant Merrin, sir?
 6A.    Well, I'm not disputing the fact that I
 7 talked with him.  I just don't remember it.
 8Q.    And that document doesn't refresh your
 9 recollection?
10A.    No, it doesn't.
11Q.    Do you have any memory problems, sir?
12A.    No, sir.
13Q.    What does EOW mean?
14A.    End of watch.
15Q.    What indication on that document as to
16 the end of watch on June 12, 1994, say?
17A.    It states end of watch was at 10:45 p.m.
18Q.    Okay.
19      And Sergeant Merrin had indicated that he
20 had received this call prior to the end of watch,
21 correct, sir?
22MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, hearsay, Your Honor.
23THE COURT:  The witness may testify what's on
24 that document.
25MR. GELBLUM:  Why, Your Honor?
26THE COURT:  Excuse me.  Because it's --
27MR. GELBLUM:  Not as to what somebody else told
28 him.
 
   227
 1THE COURT:  If it's in that report, that report
 2 can come in, it's part of official records.
 3MR. LEONARD:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 4A.    Would you repeat the question.
 5Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Yes.
 6      At what time does -- is it not true that
 7 Sergeant Merrin indicated, at least according to your
 8 official report there, that he had received this call
 9 prior to the EOW or the end of the watch, and the end
10 of watch was at 10:45 p.m., sir?
11A.    Yes, sir.
12Q.    It also indicates in there that he had
13 received a call from a woman asking if a double
14 homicide had been reported in West LA; isn't that
15 right, sir?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    Now, you were involved, obviously, in
18 running down some clues in this case, correct?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    And, in fact, the date of that notation
21 is July 7, is it not, sir?
22A.    Yes.
23Q.    You know -- sir, you know that there were
24 no other double homicides in West LA on June 12 -- on
25 the evening of June 12, other than the one that
26 occurred at 875 South Bundy, don't you?
27A.    I don't know that for sure, but I suspect
28 that's true, yes.
 
   228
 1Q.    You would bet on it, wouldn't you, sir.
 2MR. GELBLUM:  Objection.
 3THE COURT:  Sustained.
 4Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Do you have any reason
 5 to doubt that there were no others, sir?
 6A.    No.
 7Q.    Okay.
 8      Your best recollection -- your best
 9 knowledge, as you sit on this stand, there was only
10 one and that was at 875 South Bundy, correct?
11A.    Yes.
12Q.    I take it you followed up on that clue,
13 did you?
14A.    No, not that I recall.
15Q.    Okay.
16      Now, you also were involved in the
17 interview of an individual named Brian Kato Kaelin,
18 correct?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    You interviewed Kaelin at about what time
21 on the morning of June 13, 1994?
22A.    I didn't speak to him on the morning of
23 June 13.
24Q.    When did you speak to him, sir?
25A.    It would have been the early afternoon.
26Q.    At what time?
27A.    Approximately 1, 1:30 p.m.
28Q.    You were with your partner, Carr; is that
 
   229
 1 right?
 2A.    Yes, sir.
 3Q.    That was Detective Carr?
 4A.    Yes.
 5Q.    You created a report from the interview?
 6A.    Yes, I did.
 7Q.    And you created a handwritten report,
 8 correct?
 9A.    Yes, sir.
10Q.    All right.
11      Let me show you what has been previously
12 marked as 2198.  Take a look at that.  I'm going to
13 ask you some questions.
14
15     (Witness reviews Exhibit 2198.)
16
17A.    The first page is not mine.
18Q.    Well, let's stop right there then.
19      Do you have any idea who's writing that
20 is?
21A.    No, I don't.
22Q.    I want you to review the document, just
23 the first page, and tell me if you can tell by the
24 content of the document or any other indication on the
25 document who created it?
26      I ask you now if you recognize the
27 handwriting.
28      Now, I'm asking you another question.
 
   230
 1      Can you tell by the content who created
 2 that document?
 3      Just the first page.
 4
 5     (Witness reviews document.)
 6
 7A.    I don't know who wrote this.
 8Q.    All right.
 9      Tell you what.  Tear off that page.
10
11     (Witness complies)
12
13Q.    Now, take a look at the rest, the
14 remainder of the document.
15MR. LEONARD:  For the record, the witness
16 removed the first page of what has been marked for
17 identification as 2198.
18A.    This is my handwritten notes with
19 Mr. Kaelin.
20Q.    Okay.
21      (BY MR. LEONARD)  When you say this,
22 you're referring, for the record, to the 1, 2, 3, 4,
23 5, 6, 7-page handwritten documents that remains after
24 you've torn away the first page of 21 --
25MR. P. BAKER:  98.
26Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  -- 2198?
27A.    Yes, sir.
28Q.    You were subpoenaed to appear here today?
 
   231
 1A.    Yes, sir.
 2Q.    When did you receive that subpoena?
 3MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, relevance.
 4MR. LEONARD:  I'll prove it up, Your Honor?
 5A.    I believe it was possibly December 15.
 6Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Now, I take it that
 7 upon receiving the subpoena you took it upon yourself
 8 to try to prepare yourself to testify in this case; is
 9 that right, sir?
10A.    I wasn't told exactly what I was going to
11 testify to, no.
12Q.    Did you bother, for instance, to -- I
13 assume you had in mind that it would be about the
14 Simpson case, right?  I mean about your investigation
15 in the criminal case.
16      Did that thought enter your mind, sir?
17A.    Well, that could encompass very many
18 things.
19Q.    Okay.
20      Well, let me ask you this.  When you got
21 the subpoena, did you contact -- did you have any
22 discussion with the plaintiffs' attorney?
23A.    I talked with them, yes.
24Q.    Okay.
25      Did you ask them what they thought you
26 might be asked by defense counsel?
27A.    I was told that I was going to probably
28 be questioned as to a statement.
 
   232
 1Q.    And it was this statement, right?
 2A.    I believe it was, yes.
 3Q.    And so you naturally reviewed this
 4 statement before getting on the stand?
 5A.    Yes, I did.
 6Q.    Okay.
 7      You have it pretty well in mind, do you,
 8 sir?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    Is there anything you think needs to be
11 corrected, anything -- having reviewed the statement,
12 anything you think is incorrect?
13A.    No.
14Q.    And again, you had plenty of
15 opportunities to look at it and make sure that it
16 comported with your memory, correct?
17A.    Yes.
18Q.    In fact, you used it to refresh your
19 memory, right?
20A.    Yes.
21Q.    Now, what's been marked as 2198 is your
22 report of your interview with Kato Kaelin, correct?
23A.    Yes.
24Q.    By the way, you say this was there --
25 this occurred at -- and I guess you can refresh your
26 recollection, it occurred at 3:30 in the afternoon on
27 June 13, correct?
28A.    Yes.
 
   233
 1Q.    That's right at the top and it's dated,
 2 right?
 3A.    Yes, sir.
 4Q.    By the way, that's the proper way to
 5 create a report, you put a date and time; isn't that
 6 right, sir?
 7A.    I do, yes.
 8Q.    Well, that's proper police procedure?
 9A.    Yes.
10Q.    You need to know when the report was
11 taken and ideally what time it was taken, right?
12A.    Yes.
13Q.    And a report that doesn't contain that is
14 a deficient report; isn't that right?  Wouldn't you
15 agree with that?
16MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, relevance, calls for
17 conclusion.
18MR. LEONARD:  Based on previous testimony.
19THE COURT:  Sustained.
20      You may argue it, counsel, but --
21MR. LEONARD:  I'm asking a police officer --
22THE COURT:  You may ask him about this one
23MR. LEONARD:  I will.
24Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Now, certainly as of --
25 in your mind, as of 1:30 in the afternoon on June 13,
26 1994, Mr. Simpson was a suspect in the killings at 875
27 South Bundy; isn't that true, sir?
28A.    I would say he would be one, yes.
 
   234
 1Q.    Okay.
 2      Who were the other suspects?
 3A.    At that point in time I couldn't tell
 4 you.  I didn't know enough about the investigation,
 5 plus it wasn't my investigation.
 6Q.    When you set out to interview Mr. Kaelin,
 7 did you feel you knew enough about the investigation
 8 to undertake the interview of this witness?
 9A.    No.
10Q.    Really.  Did you tell anybody about that?
11MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, argumentative.
12Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Did you tell any other
13 police officer that you didn't think you had enough
14 information to conduct an interview of Mr. Kaelin at
15 the time you did it, sir?  Did you do that?
16A.    Well, you have to understand --
17Q.    Can you answer my question yes or no,
18 please, and then you can explain it.
19      Can you answer yes or no, did you tell
20 any other police officer, any supervisor, that you
21 felt that you didn't have enough information to
22 interview Mr. Kaelin as you've just told the jury.
23MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, relevance.
24MR. LEONARD:  Yes or no?
25THE COURT:  Sustained.
26MR. GELBLUM:  It's argumentative as well.
27MR. LEONARD:  It goes to --
28THE COURT:  What's the relevance of whether he
 
   235
 1 told anybody.
 2      Sustained.
 3Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  All right.
 4      You didn't have enough information.
 5      Did you know, sir, that it would be
 6 important in interviewing this witness to account for
 7 every movement that he observed of Mr. Simpson; did
 8 you think that was important at the time?
 9A.    Well, I have to go back.
10Q.    Can you answer yes or no, sir?
11A.    I can't, no.
12Q.    So right now you don't -- as you sit
13 here, you don't remember or you don't know if you
14 thought it was important at the time that you
15 interviewed Mr. Kaelin to be able to ask Mr. Kaelin
16 about all of Mr. Simpson's movements on June 12, 1994,
17 that he observed; is that what you want to leave with
18 the jury?
19MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, relevance, whether
20 this witness thought a particular aspect is important
21 or not.
22MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, this is
23 cross-examination.  I want to get --
24THE COURT:  This is cross-examination?
25MR. LEONARD:  Yes.  Yeah, it is.  And I want to
26 ask him his state of mind when he created this report.
27MR. GELBLUM:  Relevance, Your Honor.
28MR. LEONARD:  I'll show how it's relevant.
 
   236
 1MR. GELBLUM:  Can we have an offer of proof.
 2THE COURT:  This witness hasn't testified
 3 before.
 4MR. LEONARD:  He's worked for the plaintiffs.
 5THE COURT:  Doesn't make it cross-examination.
 6MR. LEONARD:  I ask that he be treated as an
 7 adverse witness.
 8THE COURT:  You may treat him as an adverse
 9 witness, but it's still not cross-examination.
10MR. LEONARD:  Well, I think --
11THE COURT:  It's not.  You're offering him as a
12 witness.
13MR. LEONARD:  I want to lead him, and I assume
14 you're going to --
15THE COURT:  You may lead him, but it's not
16 cross-examination.  That's the only point I want to
17 make.
18MR. LEONARD:  Okay.
19      Can I have a ruling on the question?
20THE COURT:  If I can find it.
21MR. LEONARD:  You know what, I'll withdraw it.
22Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  You did ask Mr. Kaelin
23 questions about what he observed of Mr. Simpson's
24 movements that night, did you not?
25A.    I asked him a number of questions about a
26 lot of things.
27Q.    Don't you want to answer my question,
28 sir?
 
   237
 1MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, argumentative, move
 2 that it be stricken.
 3THE COURT:  That's a legitimate question.
 4      Overruled.
 5A.    Would you repeat that again.  I'm sorry.
 6Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Yes.
 7      Did you, among other things, ask
 8 Mr. Kaelin about his observations of Mr. Simpson's
 9 movements that night, sir?
10      Can you answer that yes or no.
11A.    Yes.
12Q.    That was one of the goals you had in mind
13 when you set forth to interview Mr. Kaelin, was it
14 not, sir?
15A.    That was one of my goals, to find out a
16 lot of things, yes.
17Q.    Thank you.
18      And one of the things you wanted to find
19 out was Mr. Simpson's movements that night as observed
20 by Mr. Kaelin, right?
21MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, asked and answered.
22THE COURT:  It has been, but just to keep
23 things moving, overruled.
24MR. LEONARD:  I appreciated that, Your Honor.
25A.    Yes, sir.
26Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Okay.
27      Now, did you listen carefully to what
28 Mr. Kaelin told you, sir?
 
   238
 1A.    Yes.
 2Q.    Did you record carefully what Mr. Kaelin
 3 told you, sir?
 4A.    As best I could, yes.
 5Q.    Okay.
 6      And you recorded in your notes that
 7 Mr. Kaelin saw OJ Simpson enter through the front
 8 after they came back from McDonald's, did you not,
 9 sir?  And that's on page 26 of your report at the
10 bottom.
11A.    Yes, that's on my statement.
12Q.    That's what Kaelin told you, isn't it?
13A.    I assume he did, yes.
14Q.    Well, you would have no reason to put
15 that in there if he didn't tell you that, would you?
16A.    No.
17Q.    Okay.
18MR. LEONARD:  I don't have any further
19 questions.
20MR. P. BAKER:  Wait a second.
21MR. LEONARD:  Or maybe I do.
22
23     (Mr. P. Baker and Mr. Leonard
24     converse sotto voce.)
25
26MR. LEONARD:  Good thing he's here.
27Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  You also, as part of
28 your discussions with Mr. Kaelin, and as reported in
 
   239
 1 your report, you were asking background questions
 2 about the victims, at least about Nicole Brown
 3 Simpson, as well as Mr. Simpson; is that correct?
 4A.    I was trying to learn as much as I could
 5 about everyone, yes.
 6Q.    And one of the things that you were doing
 7 is you were asking questions, at least in general
 8 terms, about Nicole Brown Simpson's lifestyle; for
 9 instance, her friends, that type of thing, isn't that
10 right, sir?
11A.    Yes.
12Q.    And if you look on page -- this is the
13 fifth page, sir, of your report.  Excuse me, it would
14 be the sixth page.  You see a notation on the report,
15 it says friends, you see that?
16A.    Yes.
17Q.    Dash Nicole dash used coke.
18      Do you see that, sir?
19A.    Yes, sir.
20Q.    What does that indicate there, sir, what
21 were you tying to say in the report, what did Kaelin
22 tell you in that report?
23MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, relevance, Your Honor,
24 and hearsay.
25THE COURT:  Overruled.
26A.    Well, there must have been a question,
27 and I don't know specifically what the question was,
28 but it had to do with use of narcotics or something,
 
   240
 1 and he said she used coke.
 2Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Now, there's also a
 3 list of friends down there.
 4      Do you see that right underneath that?
 5A.    Yes, sir.
 6Q.    And there's a list.  Is Cora Fischman --
 7 that's the first friend listed; isn't that right, sir?
 8A.    Yes, sir.
 9MR. LEONARD:  I don't have any further
10 questions.
11THE COURT:  Cross-examination.
12
13   CROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. GELBLUM:
15Q.    Did you know what Kato's relationship was
16 with Nicole?
17A.    Not specifically, until I started talking
18 with him and he indicated certain things.
19Q.    Okay.
20      And did he tell you that Cora Fischman
21 used coke?
22MR. BAKER:  Objection, there's no foundation.
23MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I'm going to object
24 to that.
25MR. GELBLUM:  The document is ambiguous.
26MR. LEONARD:  He hasn't testified it was
27 ambiguous.
28MR. GELBLUM:  He wasn't asked.
 
   241
 1MR. LEONARD:  I'm objecting.  There's no basis
 2 for him --
 3THE COURT:  Sustained.
 4MR. LEONARD:  Thank you.
 5Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Did Mr. Kaelin tell you
 6 that Nicole's friends used coke as well?
 7A.    I don't remember him saying that.
 8Q.    Okay.
 9      And did he also list Faye Resnick as one
10 of her friends?
11A.    Yes.
12Q.    And Chris Jenner?
13A.    Yes.
14Q.    And someone named Cici?
15A.    Yes.
16Q.    And her three sisters?
17A.    Yes.
18Q.    Mr. Kaelin listed all those people as her
19 friends?
20A.    Yes.
21Q.    And again, you have no idea how close
22 Kato was with Nicole at this point in time?
23A.    No.
24Q.    Now, back on page 3, I guess page 2 after
25 you ripped the first page off, where you wrote down
26 about the entering through the side of the house into
27 his room and OJ entered through the front, you see
28 that?
 
   242
 1A.    Yes, sir.
 2Q.    Did you have a tape recorder going at the
 3 time?
 4A.    No, sir.
 5Q.    So you couldn't check back your notes
 6 against the tape recorder?
 7A.    No, sir.
 8Q.    Were you taking shorthand or was this
 9 exactly what you were writing as it was being spoken?
10A.    Well, most of my statements here is
11 brief.
12Q.    Okay.
13      Are these the actual notes you were
14 taking as Mr. Kaelin was speaking?
15A.    Yes, sir.
16Q.    Okay.
17      And are you confident that you got down
18 verbatim every single word that he said?
19A.    Not every word, no.
20Q.    Now, at the time you took this statement
21 had you ever been to Rockingham?
22A.    No, sir.
23Q.    And do you think you wrote down what
24 Mr. Kaelin said in sequence about him entering through
25 the side of the house and into his room and then OJ
26 entering the front in the sequence he said those
27 words?  Do you think --
28A.    Yes.
 
   243
 1Q.    And so you hadn't ever been there.  So at
 2 the time he told you that, did you know that if
 3 Mr. Kaelin entered around the side of the house into
 4 his room he couldn't possibly see what was going on in
 5 the front of the house?
 6MR. LEONARD:  I object, that's argumentative.
 7THE COURT:  Sustained.
 8Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Did Mr. Kaelin tell you
 9 from his room he could not see the front of the house?
10A.    No, he did not.
11Q.    Did he tell you that if he entered
12 through the side of the house into his room, he would
13 not be able to tell what Mr. Simpson was doing in the
14 front of the house?
15MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, I object as
16 argumentative.
17THE COURT:  Sustained.
18Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Have you been to
19 Rockingham since then?
20A.    On one occasion, yes.
21Q.    Okay.
22      And you're aware that you can't see the
23 front of the house from Mr. Kaelin's room?
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    Now, on this clue sheet that Mr. Leonard
26 asked you some questions about, do you still have that
27 in front of you?
28A.    No, sir.
 
   244
 1Q.    Does your clue indicate who the caller
 2 was that told -- that asked Officer Merrin something
 3 about a double homicide on the west side?
 4A.    No, sir, just states female caller.
 5Q.    It doesn't say whether the female caller
 6 was employed?
 7A.    No.
 8MR. LEONARD:  Why doesn't Mr. Gelblum testify.
 9MR. GELBLUM:  I'm showing him the document.
10MR. LEONARD:  I object to the leading.
11MR. GELBLUM:  You want him to get out what on
12 the document?
13THE COURT:  Excuse me.  The record will show
14 that Mr. Gelblum went to the witness and pointed to
15 the document that the defense used to refresh the
16 witness' recollection.
17      How is that leading?  That's not leading.
18Q.    Does the document say where the caller
19 was from?
20A.    I was looking at a different section.  It
21 does say at the beginning, a few lines up, that the
22 caller was with Channel 4 News.
23Q.    This was a media person calling in?
24A.    Yes.
25Q.    And, in fact, on the sheet, is there some
26 follow-up showing calling Channel 4 News?
27A.    The next line is a contact to a
28 Pete Noise (phonetic) from Channel 4 News.
 
   245
 1Q.    And back in the main entry, does that
 2 reflect what Officer Merrin told this person from
 3 Channel 4 News about whether he had heard anything
 4 about a double homicide?  In other words, Officer
 5 Merrin's response to the media call, to the Channel 4
 6 call?
 7A.    Well, he indicated that he didn't know of
 8 one.
 9THE CLERK:  For the record, is there an exhibit
10 number for that?
11MR. GELBLUM:  There was.
12THE CLERK:  Is this 2308?
13MR. GELBLUM:  I think it was.
14THE CLERK:  Thank you.
15Q.    (BY MR. GELBLUM)  Now, finally, sir,
16 sorry to move back and forth.
17      Back again to your notes of the Kaelin
18 interview, did Mr. Kaelin give you any details at all
19 about these friends?
20A.    No.
21Q.    And you didn't write down any details
22 about them, right, just listed them?
23A.    They were listed for further
24 investigation to be done.
25Q.    Okay.
26      He didn't give you any details about the
27 nature of or extent of his relationship with Nicole?
28A.    No.
 
   246
 1Q.    Or the nature and extent of her
 2 relationship with any of these friends?
 3A.    No.
 4Q.    Or the nature and extent of any asserted
 5 drug use?
 6A.    Not really, no.
 7Q.    Did he tell you anything about how he
 8 knew that anybody used drugs?
 9A.    No.
10MR. GELBLUM:  Okay.  No further questions.
11THE COURT:  Redirect.
12
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14 MR. LEONARD:
15Q.    Did you just testify that Mr. Kaelin gave
16 you no details about his relationship with Nicole
17 Brown Simpson; is that what you said?
18A.    I don't know how far you want to go with
19 relationship.  There are occasions in the statement
20 about where he met her and those types of things, and
21 also that he had never had sex with her.
22Q.    Well, that's pretty detailed, isn't it?
23MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, argumentative.
24MR. LEONARD:  Your Honor, withdrawn.
25Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Isn't there a whole
26 page of notes or page and a quarter of -- the first
27 page and a quarter of these notes have to do with
28 where he met Nicole and the fact he had been living in
 
   247
 1 a room in her house; isn't that right, sir?
 2A.    Yes.
 3Q.    Take a look at it.
 4A.    Yes, it does.
 5Q.    And from that, that's what -- and when
 6 Mr. Kaelin told you about the drug use, didn't you
 7 assume that he knew that from the fact that he had
 8 been living with her?
 9MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, relevance.
10MR. LEONARD:  I'm asking -- he opened this,
11 Your Honor.
12THE COURT:  Sustained as to what he assumed.
13Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  You were asked the
14 question, did you follow up or did you ask any
15 questions of Kaelin about how he knew about the drug
16 use.
17      Do you remember Mr. Gelblum just asking
18 you that?
19A.    Yes.
20Q.    Well, you assumed he knew from the fact
21 that he lived with her, didn't you, sir?
22MR. GELBLUM:  Same objection.
23THE COURT:  Sustained.
24Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Isn't it true, sir,
25 that you didn't follow up because you assumed that he
26 knew that from living with her, sir, isn't that right?
27MR. GELBLUM:  Same objection.
28THE COURT:  That you may answer.
 
   248
 1MR. LEONARD:  Thank you.
 2A.    I didn't assume anything as to what he
 3 was saying, no.
 4Q.    (BY MR. LEONARD)  Okay.
 5      Why didn't you follow up, why didn't you
 6 ask him more questions about that?
 7MR. GELBLUM:  Objection, relevance, Your Honor.
 8THE COURT:  Overruled.
 9A.    I really can't give you an answer.  I was
10 taking as much information from him as I could, and
11 the background of the people that were involved in
12 this, and I didn't ask him any further questions as
13 far as the narcotics.
14Q.    Now, the representation that was made by
15 the caller to Sergeant Merrin at approximately 10 to
16 10:30 on June 12, 1994, was that the -- that the
17 caller was with Channel 4 News; isn't that right?
18A.    Yes.
19Q.    And a call was made subsequent to Channel
20 4 News it was discovered that from whoever Mr. Noise
21 is, that he couldn't determine that anyone had made
22 such a call, correct?
23A.    Yes.
24Q.    What was the follow-up after that?  Did
25 you go back and talk to Sergeant Merrin about this
26 situation?
27A.    No.
28Q.    Just left it?
 
   249
 1A.    Yes.
 2MR. LEONARD:  No further questions.
 3MR. GELBLUM:  Nothing further.
 4THE COURT:  You're excused.
 5THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 6MR. P. BAKER:  Judge, I can read one
 7 deposition, might take 20 minutes.
 8THE COURT:  You got 25.
 9MR. P. BAKER:  I was going to read Rachel
10 Ferrara.  Do you guys have that?
11      Defense calls Rachel Ferrara.
12
13    RACHEL FERRARA,
14 called as a witness on behalf of the Defendants,
15 previous testimony transcript was read as follows:
16
17MR. P. BAKER:  Page 20,458, line 5.
18
19     (Testimony of Rachel Ferrara was
20     read into the record; Ms.
21     Bluestein reading the answers and
22     Mr. P. Baker reading the
23     questions.)
24MR. P. BAKER:  (Reading:)
25      Q.    Ms. Ferrara, are you a
26       friend of someone by the name of Brian
27       Kaelin, also known as Kato Kaelin?
28      A.    Yes.
 
   250
 1      Q.    How long have you known
 2       him?
 3      A.    I have known him since
 4       March of '94.
 5      Q.    And during the time that
 6       you knew him in 1994, where was he
 7       living?
 8      A.    O.J.'s guest house.
 9      Q.    What was the address of
10       that house?
11      A.    360 North Rockingham.
12      Q.    In Brentwood?
13      A.    Uh-huh.  Yes.
14      Q.    And had you ever visited
15       him at the guest house?
16      A.    Yes.
17      Q.    So you know what it looks
18       like?
19      A.    Yes.
20      Q.    On June the 12th, 1994, did
21       you receive a call from Kato Kaelin?
22      A.    Yes.
23      Q.    At approximately what time?
24      A.    Approximately 10:20.
25      Q.    And where were -- where
26       were you when you got this call?
27      A.    At home.
28      Q.    I'm sorry?
 
   251
 1      A.    At home.
 2      Q.    Without giving us your
 3       address, where was that?  Was the
 4       address the same?  Tell us the general
 5       area you were living in on June the 12th
 6       of 1994?
 7      A.    It is West LA, Palms.
 8      Q.    Okay.  About how many miles
 9       from Rockingham and Brentwood would that
10       be?
11      A.    Ten miles.  That is a
12       guess.  I really don't know.
13      Q.    Okay.  At 10:20 p.m., what
14       were you doing when you got that phone
15       call from Mr. Kaelin?
16      A.    I was watching TV.  Not
17       much.
18      Q.    Did you have a conversation
19       with him?
20      A.    Yes.
21MR. P. BAKER:  Page 20,461, line 9.
22      (Reading:)
23      Now, did Kato talk to you about
24       what he had done earlier that evening?
25      A.    Somewhat, yes.
26      Q.    Did he talk to you about
27       going to McDonald's with Mr. Simpson?
28      A.    Yes.
 
   252
 1      Q.    During the course of your
 2       conversation, did you happen to ask Kato
 3       Kaelin what time it was?
 4      A.    Yes.
 5      Q.    And how did you happen to
 6       recall that?
 7      A.    Because we were going to go
 8       out and do something and I asked him --
 9       I was trying to figure out if it was too
10       late, and he said -- so I asked him what
11       time it was, and he said 10:30.
12      Q.    Now, you were supposed to
13       go out with him that night, were you?
14      A.    Yes -- well, I don't know
15       out, but...
16      Q.    Get together?
17      A.    Yes.
18      Q.    And so after he told you it
19       was 10:30, at some point after that, did
20       something unusual occur during the
21       course of your conversation with him?
22      A.    Yes.
23      Q.    What was that?
24      A.    Well, he described it as an
25       earthquake.  He, um, he said there was a
26       bang on his wall.
27      Q.    Okay.  And about how long
28       after you had asked the time and he told
 
   253
 1       you it was 10:30 did he describe an
 2       earthquake occurring?
 3      A.    After 10:30.
 4      Q.    Right.  You asked him what
 5       time it was, he said 10:30, correct?
 6      A.    Right.
 7      Q.    At some point after that he
 8       described an earthquake occurring?
 9      A.    Uh-huh.
10      Q.    How long after that time
11       when he said it was 10:30 did he
12       describe hearing an earthquake?
13      A.    Approximately 10 minutes.
14      Q.    How did he describe that
15       earthquake sound?
16      A.    He said it was a bang.
17      Q.    When he told you about
18       that, how did he sound?
19      A.    He sounded confused and
20       startled and concerned.
21      MR. P. BAKER:  Page 20,463, line 5.
22      (Reading:)
23      Q.    Did he indicate to you in
24       any way that he was -- how did he
25       indicate to you that he was concerned?
26      A.    Well, because we tried to
27       figure out what it was, and he said was
28       there an earthquake, and I had the TV
 
   254
 1       on, so I said no, for one thing, I
 2       didn't feel anything, and also because
 3       they usually report it right away, some
 4       sort of indication, and, um, just
 5       because he kept referring back to it in
 6       the conversation.
 7      Q.    Okay.  After he --
 8      A.    And it was also -- and it
 9       also knocked his picture.
10      Q.    He said it moved the
11       picture on his wall?
12      A.    Right.
13      Q.    After he -- after you said
14       no, it was not an earthquake --
15      A.    Yes.
16      Q.    -- did he indicate some
17       concern to you?
18      A.    Yes.
19      Q.    And what concern was that?
20      A.    We thought maybe somebody
21       was outside.
22      Q.    All right.  But you
23       continued to talk to him for a while
24       after that, didn't you?
25      A.    Yes.
26      Q.    About how long?
27      A.    Approximately 10 minutes or
28       so.
 
   255
 1      Q.    Okay.  During that 10
 2       minutes that he continued to -- that you
 3       continued to talk to him, did the
 4       subject of that bang come up again?
 5      A.    Yes.
 6      Q.    How many times?
 7      A.    Oh, I don't know how many
 8       times.  I just know that it came up
 9       again.
10MR. P. BAKER:  Page 20472, line 11.
11      (Reading:)
12      Q.    Just before he hung up with
13       you, did he give you some instruction?
14      A.    Yes.
15      Q.    And what was that?
16      A.    He said if he doesn't call
17       back in 10 minutes to call the police.
18      Q.    What was his tone of voice
19       when he told you that?
20      A.    It was -- I don't remember.
21      Q.    I'm sorry?
22      A.    I don't remember his tone
23       of voice.  It wasn't urgent.
24      Q.    Were you concerned?
25      A.    Not at the moment, not that
26       much.
27      Q.    Did he indicate at any
28       point that he wanted to go out and find
 
   256
 1       what caused the noise?
 2      A.    Yes.
 3      Q.    And about what time was it
 4       that you hung up?
 5      A.    Approximately 10:50.
 6MR. P. BAKER:  Page 20,483.
 7      (Reading:)
 8      Q.    And in fact between the
 9       period of March, 1994 and June 12, 1994,
10       you had occasion to go over to the
11       Simpson residence; is that correct?
12      A.    Yes.
13      Q.    And you spent some time
14       over there; is that correct?
15      A.    Not a lot, but yes.
16      Q.    Did you spend some evenings
17       there?
18      A.    One or two evenings.
19      Q.    On how many occasions would
20       you say you went over there?
21      A.    I went over there in the
22       daytime a few times, so I would say five
23       or six.
24      Q.    All right.  During that
25       time frame?
26      A.    Yes.
27      Q.    All right.  Sometime in the
28       day and sometime in the evening; is that
 
   257
 1       correct?
 2      A.    Correct.
 3      Q.    And did you ever see
 4       Mr. O.J. Simpson during any of these
 5       times that you went over there?
 6      A.    Never.
 7      Q.    So the five or six times
 8       you went over there between March of
 9       1994 and June 12 of 1994, you never saw
10       Mr. O.J. Simpson, right?
11      A.    Never.
12      Q.    On this particular evening
13       that we are talking about,
14       June 12, 1994, do you recall that you
15       received a phone call from Mr. Kaelin
16       that evening; is that correct?
17      A.    Yes.
18      Q.    And to the best of your
19       recollection, that phone call was
20       somewhere approximately 10:30 p.m., the
21       first phone call; is that right?
22      A.    Approximately 10:30.
23      Q.    You were talking to him by
24       10:30 that evening?
25      A.    We were talking during
26       10:30, but it was before 10:30.
27      Q.    The first call was about
28       what time, 10:20?
 
   258
 1      A.    Yes.
 2      Q.    And at 10:30 you were still
 3       talking; is that correct?
 4      A.    Yes.
 5      Q.    You had some plans of
 6       possibly getting together that evening;
 7       is that correct?
 8      A.    Yes.
 9      Q.    As it turned out, you
10       didn't get together that evening, did
11       you?
12      A.    No.
13      Q.    And as I understand your
14       testimony, that evening you had perhaps
15       three conversations all together, is
16       that correct, three telephone
17       conversations?
18      A.    Yes, I guess you could put
19       it like that.
20      Q.    It was during the first
21       conversation that -- while talking to
22       Mr. Kaelin he described for you a bang
23       on the wall of his residence or
24       something of that nature; is that
25       correct?
26      A.    Yes.
27      Q.    Do you recall he used the
28       term "bang on the wall;" is that
 
   259
 1       correct?
 2      A.    Yes.
 3      Q.    At first, as I understand
 4       it, he thought it was an earthquake, and
 5       because you were watching television,
 6       you were aware at least there was no
 7       indication of an earthquake at this
 8       time; is that correct?
 9      A.    Yes.
10      Q.    All right.
11      A.    Well, that is not the only
12       indication, but I didn't feel anything.
13      Q.    So you didn't feel
14       anything?
15      A.    Right.
16      Q.    You didn't see any mention
17       of it either; is that correct?
18      A.    Right.
19      Q.    You were approximately 10
20       miles from where he was at that point;
21       is that correct?
22      A.    That is an approximate.
23       I'm not sure.
24      Q.    You were in Palms
25       somewhere; is that correct?
26      A.    Yes.
27      Q.    Now, after he told you
28       about this bang on the wall, there came
 
   260
 1       a time when this conversation -- the
 2       first conversation terminated; is that
 3       correct?
 4      A.    Yes.
 5      Q.    Can you tell us about what
 6       time that first conversation terminated?
 7      A.    Around 10:50.
 8      Q.    And at that point you
 9       expected that Mr. Kaelin would call back
10       again; is that correct?
11      A.    Yes.
12      Q.    And so that we are clear,
13       if you can help us with this, what time
14       did he call back after the first
15       conversation, what was the time of the
16       second conversation?
17      A.    Approximately 11:05.
18      Q.    So perhaps 15 minutes later
19       he called back; is that correct?
20      A.    Right.
21      Q.    Do you know, or were you
22       able to ascertain whether or not Mr.
23       Kaelin had seen Mr. Simpson between the
24       two phone calls, between 10:50 and
25       11:05, were you able to ascertain that?
26      A.    Yes.
27      Q.    That was based upon
28       something that he told you?
 
   261
 1      A.    Correct.
 2      Q.    Did you discuss with -- did
 3       you discuss with Mr. Kaelin that night
 4       that Mr. Simpson was going to Chicago on
 5       an airplane at all?
 6      A.    Discuss?
 7      Q.    Yeah, did you guys talk
 8       about that?
 9      A.    It wasn't like a whole
10       topic discussed.  It was mentioned.
11      Q.    I'm not talking about a
12       topic.  Did you have occasion to mention
13       that in the course of your conversation?
14      A.    Yes, yes.
15MR. P. BAKER:  That's all I have.
16MR. PETROCELLI:  Page 20,470, starting at line
17 15.
18     (Testimony of Rachel Ferrara was
19     read into the record; Ms.
20     Bluestein reading the answers and
21     Mr. Petrocelli reading the
22     questions.)
23
24MR. PETROCELLI:  (Reading:)
25 CROSS-EXAMINATION
26
27      Q.    After the bang on the wall,
28       at some point did Mr. Kaelin indicate to
 
   262
 1       you that he wanted to terminate the
 2       conversation?
 3      A.    Yes.
 4      Q.    And were you expecting at
 5       the time he terminated the conversation
 6       to hear back from him again?
 7      A.    Yes.
 8MR. P. BAKER:  Objection, hearsay.
 9THE COURT:  Overruled.
10MR. PETROCELLI:  (Reading:)
11      Q.    After you hung up from him,
12       did you leave your apartment?
13      A.    No.
14      Q.    Why didn't you leave your
15       apartment?
16      A.    Because I didn't plan on
17       leaving.
18      Q.    Okay.  Were you waiting for
19       him to call back?
20      A.    Yes.
21MR. PETROCELLI:  Page 20,473, line 8.
22      (Reading:)
23      Q.    Did you ever hear back from
24       Mr. Kaelin that night after you hung up
25       at 10:50?
26      A.    Yes.
27      Q.    And what time was it
28       approximately when you heard back from
 
   263
 1       him?
 2      A.    I would say approximately
 3       11:05, 5 after 11.
 4      Q.    I'm sorry?
 5      A.    5 after 11.
 6      Q.    Okay.  And did you have a
 7       conversation with him about what
 8       occurred after he hung up with you at
 9       10:50?
10      A.    Yes.
11MR. PETROCELLI:  Question starting at line 27.
12      (Reading:)
13      Q.    During your conversation
14       with Mr. Kaelin, when you resumed your
15       conversation after 11 o'clock or 11:05,
16       did something interrupt your telephone
17       call with him?
18      A.    Yes.
19      Q.    And how -- approximately
20       how long had you been speaking, if you
21       remember, at the point that the phone
22       call was interrupted?
23      A.    Approximately 10 minutes.
24      Q.    Are you familiar with the
25       feature on telephones called call
26       waiting?
27      A.    Yes.
28      Q.    So are you familiar with
 
   264
 1       what occurs when someone calls while
 2       you're on the line if you have call
 3       waiting?
 4      A.    Yes.
 5      Q.    And what is that?
 6      A.    The -- it clicks or beeps
 7       or actually it clicks.
 8      Q.    Okay.  And during your
 9       conversation with Mr. Kaelin after 11
10       o'clock p.m. after you had been speaking
11       to him for awhile, did something
12       interrupt your call?
13      A.    Yes.
14      Q.    And what was that?
15      A.    Call waiting on his line.
16      Q.    On his line.  And did he
17       click off onto the other line?
18      A.    Yes.
19MR. PETROCELLI:  Go to page 20,479, starting at
20 line 7.
21      (Reading:)
22      Q.     And after he clicked back
23       on, you had some further conversation
24       with him, didn't you?
25      A.    Yes.
26      Q.    And for how long did you
27       speak to him after he clicked back on?
28      A.    After he clicked back over?
 
   265
 1      Q.    Yes.
 2      A.    Not very long.  He --
 3      Q.    Complete your answer.
 4      A.    Just a couple of minutes,
 5       and then he went outside.
 6      Q.    And then did he call you
 7       back again after he came back inside?
 8      A.    Yes.
 9      Q.    And about how long was it
10       that you spoke after he called you back
11       the third time?
12      A.    The third time?
13      Q.    Right.
14      A.    Um, it was for a long time,
15       an hour and a half.
16      Q.    Okay.  About what time did
17       you hang up with him?
18      A.    I don't know what time.  I
19       would have to calculate it and figure it
20       out.  I guess, let's see, 12:30,
21       1 o'clock.
22      Q.    Okay.
23MR. PETROCELLI:  Page 20,481, line 19.
24      (Reading:)
25      Q.     And how long had you known
26       Kato Kaelin prior to June 12, 1994?
27      A.    Well, for just -- well,
28       since March, so...
 
   266
 1      Q.    All right.  So you've known
 2       him since March of 1994; is that
 3       correct?
 4      A.    Yes.
 5      Q.    You met him in connection
 6       with this movie production we were
 7       talking about?
 8      A.    Yes.
 9      Q.    And during that period of
10       time between March, 1994 and June of
11       1994, did a relationship of some kind
12       develop between you and Mr. Kaelin?
13      A.    Yes.
14      Q.    And what was that
15       relationship?
16      A.    We were friends and we were
17       dating.
18      Q.    Dating?
19      A.    Yes.
20      Q.    And you came to know him
21       pretty well as of June 12 of 1994?
22      A.    Yes.
23MR. LEONARD:  Objection, rel --
24MR. P. BAKER:  Objection, relevance.
25THE COURT:  Overruled.
26MR. PETROCELLI:  (Reading:)
27      Q.    Did you find him to be a
28       fairly honest and straightforward person
 
   267
 1       in your dealings with him?
 2MR. P. BAKER:  Same objection.
 3THE COURT:  Sustained.
 4MR. PETROCELLI:  These are Mr. Cochran's
 5 questions.
 6THE COURT:  I don't care whose it is.  There's
 7 an objection.  I sustained it.
 8MR. PETROCELLI:  They go directly to the nature
 9 of the relationship, Your Honor.
10THE COURT:  Sustained.
11MR. PETROCELLI:  Next question.
12      (Reading:)
13      Did he tell you the truth as far
14       as you knew?
15MR. P. BAKER:  Same objection.
16THE COURT:  Sustained.
17MR. PETROCELLI:  Okay.
18      Continuing on to 20,487 at line 22.
19 Okay.  Referring to a -- it's one of the telephone
20 conversations.
21      (Reading:)
22      Q.     Was that in the first
23       conversation or in the second one?
24      A.    That was -- that was in the
25       second.
26      Q.    Second conversation?
27      A.    Yes.
28      Q.    After he came back; is that
 
   268
 1       correct?
 2      A.    Correct.
 3      Q.    And in the second
 4       conversation -- how long did that
 5       conversation last?
 6      A.    Second conversation lasted,
 7       oh, approximately 10 minutes.
 8      Q.    So about 11:15 or
 9       thereabouts?
10      A.    Yes.
11      Q.    And then after that there
12       was a period of time and then you had a
13       third conversation; is that correct?
14      A.    Yes.
15      Q.    Okay.  So if the second
16       conversation ended at about 11:15 --
17      A.    Uh-huh.
18      Q.    -- can you help us when the
19       third conversation began, when he called
20       you back?
21      A.    When it began?
22      Q.    Yes, what time did you
23       start?
24      A.    Well, probably -- he wasn't
25       outside for very long, so I would say 10
26       minutes later, so 11:20.
27      Q.    So your best recollection
28       is that the third conversation would
 
   269
 1       have started about 11:25 or thereabouts?
 2      A.    Yes.
 3      Q.    Okay.  I understand these
 4       are just estimates, is that correct,
 5       your best estimate?
 6      A.    Best estimate, yes.
 7      Q.    And this third conversation
 8       was the one you shared with us that may
 9       have lasted up to an hour and a half; is
10       that correct?
11      A.    Yes.
12      Q.    In the second conversation,
13       did Mr. Kaelin say to you that he had
14       seen a limousine outside in the
15       driveway?
16      A.    Yes.
17MR. PETROCELLI:  Okay.
18      I assume you're going to sustain
19 objections, Your Honor, to further questions about
20 Kaelin's honesty and so forth.
21THE COURT:  Just a minute.
22MR. PETROCELLI:  It's at page 20,489.  I think
23 because they're reading this in I ought to have the
24 opportunity to --
25MR. P. BAKER:  Your Honor --
26MR. PETROCELLI:  -- Have the opportunity to
27 read the testimony.
28
 
   270
 1    (Pause.)
 2
 3THE COURT:  Okay, I'll set aside the former
 4 ruling.  I'll allow the question with regards to his
 5 honesty under 780 of the Evidence Code.
 6MR. PETROCELLI:  Thank you.
 7MR. P. BAKER:  Your Honor, I'd like to object,
 8 outside the scope.
 9THE COURT:  Overruled.
10MR. PETROCELLI:  (Reading:)
11      We're going back to page 20,482.
12      Okay?
13MS. BLUESTEIN:  Okay.
14MR. PETROCELLI:  Referring to your knowledge of
15 Kaelin, okay, starting at line 13.
16      Q.    Did you find him to be a
17       fairly honest and straightforward person
18       in your dealings with him?
19      A.    Definitely.
20      Q.    Did he tell you the truth
21       as far as you knew?
22      A.    As far as I knew.
23MR. PETROCELLI:  And over at page 20,489, line
24 25, actually going down to, "Do you believe that Kato
25 Kaelin is an honest and credible person?"
26      And your answer is at line 5.
27      (READING:)
28      A.    I do believe that he is an
 
   271
 1       honest and credible person.
 2      Q.    An honest and credible
 3       person?
 4      A.    Yes.
 5      Q.    Why do you say that?
 6      A.    Because I -- I know him.
 7      Q.    You still consider yourself
 8       a friend?
 9      A.    He's very moral.
10      Q.    This is based upon the time
11       you have known him since March of 1994;
12       is that correct?
13      A.    Yes.
14      Q.    Okay.
15MR. PETROCELLI:  And finally, page 20,497 at
16 line 5.
17      (READING:)
18      Q.    You have indicated to
19       Mr. Cochran that many of your time
20       estimates are approximate, do you recall
21       that?
22      A.    Yes.
23      Q.    Was there one particular
24       time that night when you absolutely
25       determined what time it was during your
26       conversation with Mr. Kaelin?
27      A.    Yes.
28      Q.    And when was that?
 
   272
 1      A.    10:30.
 2      Q.    Okay.  And that was how
 3       long before he told you about the bang?
 4      A.    About 10 minutes before.
 5      Q.    Okay.
 6MR. PETROCELLI:  No further questions.
 7MR. P. BAKER:  Continuing, line 20, okay.
 8      (Reading:)
 9
10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
11       (READING:)
12      Q.    You are certain of that
13       time?
14      A.    Yes.
15      Q.    And why is that?
16      A.    Um, just because of how
17       much longer we talked.
18MR. P. BAKER:  Page 20,498, line 10.
19
20      Q.    When you just indicated to
21       us you were certain of the time of
22       10:30, did you pay specific attention at
23       that point to what time it was?
24      A.    Well, I was aware of it.
25      Q.    Okay.  You directed -- did
26       you direct your attention to what time
27       it was at that point?
28      A.    At 10:30?
 
   273
 1      Q.    Yes.
 2      A.    Yes.
 3      Q.    What did you do to
 4       determine what time it was?
 5      A.    I asked Kato what time it
 6       was.
 7      Q.    Okay.
 8    So other than the time of
 9       10:30 and the 10 minutes after that you
10       have just indicated to us, are you
11       certain of any of the other times you
12       have mentioned or are those
13       approximated?
14      A.    Well, I'm certain of the --
15       of the -- of the 11:05.
16      Q.    I mean I know it was
17       after -- wait, okay.
18      A.    I mean I know it was after,
19       um, yeah, I would say I'm certain.
20      Q.    What are you certain of?
21      A.    Of the times.
22MR. P. BAKER:  Nothing further.
23MR. PETROCELLI:  That's okay, Your Honor,
24 nothing further.
25THE COURT:  Okay.  Ladies and gentlemen, we
26 will adjourn until Wednesday, 8:30.  Don't talk about
27 the case, don't form or express any opinions.
28      Merry Christmas.
 

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