Hudson's WC testimony

WC Hearings Volume VII
TESTIMONY OF EMMETT J. HUDSON

The testimony of Emmett J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m. on July 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and ,take the oath? Do
you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HUDSON. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the
Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130,
dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
Pursuant to the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have an
attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of
the hearing. I don't think you did get 3 days' notice of it, but since
you are here I assume you are willing to go ahead?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to have an attorney present?
Mr. HUDSON. I don't know that it is necessary--no, is it?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; I don't think it is at all necessary. Most of the
witnesses don't have one present. We Just have a few questions. Will you
state your full name, please?
Mr. HUDSON. Emmett J. Hudson.
Mr. LIEBELER What is your address?
Mr. HUDSON. 107 South Bishop.

558

Page 559
Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you are employed by the
Dallas Park Department and you are the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza;
is that correct?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza on or about
November 22, 1963.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I have been there about 6 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at
around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard
where the little toolshed was.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nearest intersection to where you were?
Mr. HUDSON. Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and what?
Mr. HUDSON. Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and Houston?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far away from the corner of Elm and Houston were you
at the time the motorcade came by?
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, I suppose that it's about--the best I can estimate is
somewhere about 200 yards, I guess, down Elm and Houston when the
motorcade came along--that's about where I was.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were right by where the motorcade came by; is that
right?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down
to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway
between the triple underpass and Houston, where the steps are somewhere
near about halfway.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission
Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can you
show us on, that picture, if that picture shows it the place where you
were standing?
Mr. HUDSON. Let me see---- that's the triple underpass down there--I
don't believe this picture gets-those steps--yes; it does, too--here
they are---I recognize it now--here it is right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are the steps?
Mr. HUDSON. Here they are right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is the series of steps that runs right down the-street
there?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you show me just where you were standing?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was right along--you see, the steps come down the
Steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say it is a
little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I
was standing on this--that would be somewhere around along about there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were
standing so that we can have that.
Mr. HUDSON. Right along about there.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that
correct?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on
photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you
saw--tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.
Mr. HUDSON. Well, there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age
about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to
park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place
over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and
said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat
down there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of
Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on
the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and,
of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right
at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade

559

Page 560
had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a
good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him
when that bullet hit him---the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that
correct?
Mr. HUDSON Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a
little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?
Mr. HUDSON. Right hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately where the President's car
was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, the best I could get right off--I remember it was
right along about this lightpost right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand
side of Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; coming off of Houston, you see, there's a lightpost
right there close to the Houston Street, right there, just above this
little crook right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. That lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; it doesn't show in the picture---it was about, I
believe, where the first shot was fired.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think he was by the lightpost in this picture when
the first shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON. Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car
was when he was hit--at the time I was looking right at him when the
shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear altogether?
Mr. HUDSON. Three.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three shots?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the
head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I do believe that--I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in
your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear
another shot?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see, that shot hit anything--the third shot?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. I'll tell you--this young fellow that was sitting
there with me---standing there with me at the present time, he says,
"Lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay
down, lay and he kept on repeating, "Lay down," so he was already laying
down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and
resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when
I was close to the ground--you could tell the shot was coming from above
and kind of behind.
Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, just the sound of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and
then above?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the
ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole
lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing down here where we put the "X"?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that when the President was hit in the head he
was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post
that shows in the picture?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's when he got hit in the head?

560

Page 561
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had to look up Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see
[indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't
it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture
of a re-enactment of the scene.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty
close to even with this here, the last shot was fired---somewhere right
along in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the last shot was fired and the car was
about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was
fired?
Mr. HUDSON. Pretty close to it; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you think the President had already been hit in the
head by the time the third shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON. He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was
hit in the neck one .time and in the head one time.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the
presidential car then; could you see it then?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was coming around--it had just got around the
corner, you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there,
come off of Houston onto Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it look to you like the President was hit by the
first shot?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he got hit 'by the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the President got hit in the head,
did you see what he did, what happened in the car?
Mr. HUDSON. He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the
seat with him and pulls him over.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pulled him down in the seat?
Mr. HUDSON. Pulled him over in her lap like.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't think the President got hit by the first
shot and you say he got hit 'm the head with the second shot----
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to
say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was hit again after he got hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs.
Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck
after he had been hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could
have been hit?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head
like that?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you
know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you only saw the President hit once; is that right,
sir?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you aren't able to say from your own observation when
he was hit in the neck?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If he was hit in the neck.
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

561

Page 562
Mr. LIEBELER. Could the car have actually been down here where it is in
photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street--this is
Elm Street that runs down here---right here---could the car have been
that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see this little pedestal back up here?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just above the "X" where you were standing?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there that you can
remember, during the time the President went by?
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole
bunch of them--a lot of people in there a lot of people in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there taking motion
pictures with a movie camera?
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get--taking
pictures.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see a man with a moving picture camera?
Mr. HUDSON. Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting
time--- now---I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Standing across Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, he had a camera--I don't know whether it was a motion
picture camera or not, but he had a camera.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson
Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would
you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk
about it, so we don't get confused?
Mr. HUDSON. You mean--put my name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Just your initials.
Mr. HUDSON. [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right?
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and
let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing?
Mr. HUDSON. (No response)
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it
that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right," doesn't it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you find that sign on the photograph No. 18 of
Commission Exhibit No. 875? The one that we were talking about before.
Mr. HUDSON. That's right here, I believe right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that sign says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep
right." Where is the Stemmons Freeway sign in this picture? Can you see
it in that picture at all---I can't.
Mr. HUDSON. I can't either--that isn't it--it's farther up this way.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's further back up and it's out of the picture?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R. L.
Thornton Freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "Fort Worth
Turnpike, keep right."
Mr. HUDSON. ,There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right
through there them signs was--one was right along in here and the other
one was either further up, I guess It's not in that picture---I don't
believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved that
R. L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.
Mr. LIEBELER. They have? They have moved it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. That might explain it, because this picture here, No. 18,
was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time No.
1.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it had to be right along in there those steps have got
to come down right along in here, if I see the picture right. Now, this
is Elm right hero coming down through here, and this is that concrete
thing up here that comes around like this---it comes over here and the
steps begin right

562

Page 563
along up in there somewhere and come on down right here to the sidewalk,
right along in there somewhere to where those steps is.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the
back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of the
concrete structure there?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; this was taken at the present time it happened--this
picture was?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself;
yes, sir. Let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different
angles, referring to photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No.
875--there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side
of the picture.
Mr. HUDSON. That's just right along in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and that appears in Hudson Exhibit No. 1,
immediately to the right of the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep
right." does it not?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; those steps are right along there between that
concrete the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree
come between them--no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree that's a
live oak tree right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that's right off of the end of this concrete
embankment there, there's a live oak tree there.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you
make yourself out?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I can't, unless it is one of these two men right
here I can't tell--if I had that picture that was taken in the Times
Herald .paper--I can show you myself in it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning
after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the
assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Look at this picture.
Mr. HUDSON. [Examining picture referred to.] I don't know--if that's
one of them men and myself or not up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and you are
not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually,
Commission Exhibit No. 203 shows a different area.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's a picture from the front of the Texas School Book
Depository Building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according to
where you placed yourself by looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. HUDSON. No; I wouldn't be in that at all--I know. If they had that
picture that was taken--a fellow was shooting from across Elm up toward
those steps here, that showed my picture in it, I believe. Now, I could
be one of those men standing fight there I'm not for sure I wouldn't say
for sure that I was one of them or not, but I can't see it well enough
to tell.
Mr. LIEBELER. In this picture here you see the car is going down Elm
Street, isn't that right, referring to Hudson Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it is just about to pass a sign that says, "Stemmons
Freeway, keep right." Do you think that the President could have been
hit when he was that far hack up Elm Street?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes
Mr. LIEBELER. You do think that?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you had already heard one shot when you saw the
President get hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard another shot after that time?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, do you
think that that is about the place where the President got hit in the
head, or was it further back up on Elm or was it further down---if
so---about where was it?
Mr. HUDSON. That's somewhere pretty close.

563

Page 564
Mr. LIEBELER. That's pretty close right there?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it's somewhere pretty close.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard these three shots and saw the President
get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little
knoll there and you got away.
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing there, did you ever look up
toward the railroad tracks .there where they went across the triple
underpass?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; while I was laying there I didn't--I was looking
down towards Elm Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you never looked up towards the railroad tracks that
went across the underpass?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots
came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea that they might have come from the
Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and
kind of behind like in other words, to the left.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book
Depository, wouldn't it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up there and see if you could see anybody?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I didn't. I never thought about looking up that
way, to tell you the truth about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were thinking about getting out of the way after
things started?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow
thinks about a million things in one second there at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing around there any place with
a rifle on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on
the overpass or any place else?
Mr. HUDSON. I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols.

Mr. LIEBELER. The policemen?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER Now, did you see anything else down there when this all
happened that you think we ought to know about that I haven't asked you
about?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't know of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Governor Connally---did you think Governor
Connally had been hit?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car.
The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car
when that happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car
at all?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots?
Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot
and fell down in the car.
Mr. HUDSON. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as
the second shot?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any
recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be
fired and how far apart was one shot from the other?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It
seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well---when the
shots were all fired.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think passed from the time the first
shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any
estimate about that?

564

Page 565
Mr. HUDSON. Oh, probably 2 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As much as 2 minutes?
Mr. HUDSON. It might not have been that long.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you thought he had plenty of time to get all the
shots off anyway?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever do any shooting?
Mr. HUDSON. Well, not no big rifle--I haven't never done no shooting
with no big rifle. I have shot shotguns---.22's and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them
closer together?
Mr. HUDSON. They seemed pretty well evenly spaced.
Mr. LIEBELER. Evenly spaced; is that it?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody talk to you at all about security
arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all
handled by the police?
Mr. HUDSON. That was all handled by the police.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with anything like that?
Mr. HUDSON. That's right--the fact of the business is, I didn't know
they had been routed that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't even know it was going to go by until they
came?
Mr. HUDSON. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the FBI?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who talked to you?
Mr. HUDSON. Not by name, I don't; no, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell them approximately the same thing you
have told me?
Mr. HUDSON. Yes; approximately the same thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police
Department or the FBI?
Mr. HUDSON. The FBI and I made a deposition over at the
courthouse---the same day that the assassination was.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's
office?
Mr. HUDSON. The sheriff's office.
Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Mr. Hudson, I want to thank you very much for
coming in. I don't have any more questions.
Mr. HUDSON. Well, if it has been any help, I am glad it did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?
Mr. HUDSON. If it has been any help, I am glad to come down.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think you have been and we are glad to have you
cooperate with us in the way you have. I want to thank you very much on
behalf of the Commission.
Mr. HUDSON. All right, good day.
Edgar Leon Smith, Jr.
-------------------
Page 565