Electric Library: Stone on `Nixon'

Stone on `Nixon'

CHARLIE ROSE, Host: Welcome to the broadcast. Oliver Stone is back, and with him he has brought Nixon. Always controversial, always on the edge, always prepared to grab history and shake it, Stone is our most political filmmaker. He is not afraid to tackle larger than life people and subjects. Some say he makes people think. Others say the medium is so strong and its ideas so strong that he may be dangerous. He is not a historian; he is a filmmaker. He debunks myths, and he makes myths. He is admired for his courage and disliked by some for his point of view and his creative license. Tonight, Oliver Stone on his Nixon and his films.

Welcome.

OLIVER STONE, Director: Hi, Charlie.

CHARLIE ROSE: How are you?

OLIVER STONE: Good. It's been a while.

CHARLIE ROSE: It has been. Tell me about Richard Nixon, that you have brought to film- three and- hours plus that I saw last night.

OLIVER STONE: What did you think?

CHARLIE ROSE: I expected you to ask that. I liked, I like it. I admired very much much of what you had done. I thought all of the performances were both brilliant in the casting and in the performance, from Hopkins to Sorvino, James Woods, they- two of them who've been here. I would like to have seen, you know- and it was intriguing to me to watch Richard Nixon, and I thought it was a slice of him. And I'm not troubled by some of what, clearly, you have- would be considered dramatic license, you know, whether it's a scene on the bridge or whatever it is doesn't trouble me. Here was a man that is intriguing to all of us who are political junkies - you and me: a dominant political figure of our time. I wanted to know more from this about what it was that made him great. You know, there is a line in the film where he had an opportunity for greatness - I think you- I've forgotten who said it, you know. What I saw was a man at the end of his time, essentially, with a glass in his hand, and- you know, and, and unraveling-

OLIVER STONE: Mm-hm.

CHARLIE ROSE: -a lot. So I like the film. I love the performances. The direction, as always with an Oliver Stone film-

OLIVER STONE: Mm-hm.

CHARLIE ROSE: -was extraordinary.

OLIVER STONE: Well, I think-

CHARLIE ROSE: But those were the reservations-

OLIVER STONE: I think that's well said.

CHARLIE ROSE: -I had.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. I, I understand that. I, I guess it- I'm glad you said it because then I can- we can get to the point faster instead of going on- I could go on about the movie, and then you'll, you'll, you'll raise the issue. I think that- the line comes from Elliot Richardson, who I met in Washington with Tony Hopkins, and he, he leaned over - he's a Boston Brahmin - and in his incomparable accent, he said, `You know, he had greatness in his grasp, but he had the defects of his qualities.' And I was, like, puzzled, and I was thinking about the defects of his qualities. And I thought back to- the same thing had been said to me earlier by Shimon Peres in Israel, who knew Nixon, also, as a younger man, and he said, you know, `The man was- which Nixon do you want to know about, the good Nixon, or the bad Nixon?' He says, `The good Nixon, the very tools, the very weapons that he used to come from nowhere, from Whittier [?], California, a nobody, to rise to the very top of the American power structure, were the very weapons and tools that just destroyed him,' because in a sense the Greek, Greek irony, fate, anger, paranoia - the things that motivated him a large part of his life-

CHARLIE ROSE: Outsider.

OLIVER STONE: -and idealism, and idealism, although it was, in my view, a, a corrupt- corrupted idealism - were the tools of his destruction. So in the concept of the movie, you- you're absolutely correct. We telescope back in time. The movie is basically structured around the last year of his, of his presidency. And he is alone, he's isolated, he's in the Lincoln Room a lot of the time - of the White House - and listening and living through his past through the tapes. That was the concept of the movie. He has and is unraveling, absolutely. And in fact, we are historically correct. Most of the witnesses of that period point to a man who was unraveling, who was-

CHARLIE ROSE: And some of that is reported in Final Days.

OLIVER STONE: -unfortunate, who was, who was drinking- on- Final Days with Lilian Bernstein [?] - who was drinking and who was also taking pills, by the way, and who went through a near-death situation with phlebitis, a major major- almo- near death. And apparently had to be medi- had to take medication to deal with it, and the medication would sometimes lead to slurring. But we don't ever suggest in the movie that he was out of control, ready to push the nuclear button, some kind of parody. No. The man was a very- actually moderate drinker, by all accounts, but one or two drinks - and especially in combination with pills - might easily set off a slurred reaction. But even in his drunken moments in the White House, he was very much a man in control. He uses - like my father did - drinking to, to relax himself from a very tense inner core.

So, the heights, the courage of the man, the, the greatness - all this is subject to debate. You can say he had greatness in his grasp. Yes. He had a vision of the world, and he explains it on the boat, I thought very succinctly, you know: `We've got to hang in there in Vietnam. We're not, we're not going to lose this way. We're going to hang in in Vietnam, and through that war, we're going to divide the communist alliance. We're going to split China from Russia, and we're going to make separate deals with both.' And I think that's a brilliant triangular diplomacy strategy, and I do believe he initiated it, not Henry Kissinger. And I believe he carried it out. China was a ringing success, and most people really underestimate the greatness of his move in Russia. He actually made SALT I treaty work. He had a great friendship, it seems, with Brezhnev, the Premier, and was in the process of, of making SALT II. If Nixon had remained in office, it is my belief and my opinion only that we would have ended the cold war in the second term, and that we would not have had Ronald Reagan and this huge military buildup we had in the 1980s. So that is the- in my mind, that is the greatness that I am referring to.

But in his own life, where was the greatness? You know, we should talk about that. Where was the greatness in the Hiss trial? Where was the greatness in the Checkers speech? Where is the greatness in all these crisis that are self-imposed? What did he actually do as Vice President? You know, Richard Nixon, to me, was a man who was obsessed with greatness. He worshipped Churchill and DeGaulle and Adenauer, the big men from World War II, the Marshalls and the, and the Eisenhowers - worshipped them, he wanted to be them. But ultimately, he failed at it. He did not succeed. He trained himself to be the best, to be the great- where is it? You tell me. Where is the greatness in his dragging out the war for four years and lying to the American people and blemishing American institutions?

CHARLIE ROSE: When you looked at him- let me talk about the mechanics of the movie for a second. Hopkins. Why Tony Hopkins? Back to Nixon in a moment. Why Anthony Hopkins?

OLIVER STONE: It's just I think Tony Hopkins, to be honest, is in a class by himself. Just as an incredible actor, first of all. I mean, everything he does is, to me, fascinating. But in the movie, Remains of the Day, I saw a side of Hopkins that was isolated and sad and certainly the repression of feelings, and I went right away to my father because I- my father resembles Nixon in many ways, too, and I was thinking that Tony Hopkins is the closest actor I know who's about 50, who has some of those characteristics and mannerisms, that crankiness and kind of sourpuss irritation that Nixon always had. I love Hopkins' face. I think it's a map of a, of a life that- of suffering. You know, the man has suffered greatly, too, in his own life.

CHARLIE ROSE: What did you see in Shadowlands?

OLIVER STONE: More emotions. That's not Nixon to me, but what I saw in that movie was the complement. In other words, Tony Hopkins is, to me, a fully complemented actor. He has all the, the range to play. He can play cold, he could play warm. And if you can warm up Nixon a little bit for the purposes of a movie, a drama, you know, to allow us to see into the eyes of Ri- Richard Nixon and to see into his soul, that's a far bigger step than the real Nixon allowed, you see. Nixon never photographed- never allowed himself to be- do you remember the photographs of Nixon walking on the beach at - what was it? San Clemente?

CHARLIE ROSE: In a suit.

OLIVER STONE: -in his suit and his- not even taking his shoes off. This is not a man who is geared to let you in. Hopkins is. He allows you that, you know- it's really a privilege to, to- I mean, Tony is- bares his soul, and Nixon never did, so that's one reason you go with a great actor.

CHARLIE ROSE: You believe that Nixon had a secret.

OLIVER STONE: No. Secrets.

CHARLIE ROSE: He was- secrets. What do you think they were? What is it that you think he was holding back?

OLIVER STONE: He was one of the most complicated individuals. I think that he was ridden with secrets, with repressed feelings. I think that his awkwardness, all the body gestures - and Tony can act this out far better than I - suggest a man who is uncomfortable in his own skin, who never accepts himself. There was a certain amount of self-loathing there.

CHARLIE ROSE: No grace.

OLIVER STONE: No grace, self-loathing. A lo- maybe a feeling of inadequacy or a sense of low self-esteem. You know, all through his life everyone talks about this dis- unease in private. He was a very good public speaker. I mean, he was moderately good, but he was more comfortable with a large crowd than he was in a private conversation. So in the movie, we have many ways of looking at Nixon. We have- obviously, Pat Nixon, we thought, was the, was the greatest in, and, and obviously we assume a lot because we don't know the conversations they had. But through that dramatic device, that character, Joan Allen, we at least understand that even the wife, even the wife after - what? 40 years - cannot, cannot find the secret in the man. And in, in one scene in the movie, she accuses him of almost wanting that secret to be revealed in a public humiliation because it's so much to keep in over a period of your life that- in a way, isn't Nixon the- this strange paradigm of somebody who hides, hides, hides, and then explodes and lets it out, you know? I was thinking about Jimmy Morrison of- he was shy, too, but he exploded in a Miami concert. You know, he, he bared himself. There was that need for a public, almost humiliation in Nixon. It's a strange- you could write psychohi- psychiatric history books of this man forever.

But I maintain- and my co-writers and I that he never- the wife, Haldeman, nobody got in. Nobody got in, finally, to the black hole that was Richard Nixon. He remains like Cain [?] did before him, an enigma, an enigma. So secrets? Yeah. You have tons of secrets. You've got Cuba, you've got the Bay of Pigs- we've potted [?] something off of that. But ultimately, what is the movie about? It's a man who keeps secrets, isn't it? It doesn't matter, really, what the secret is.

CHARLIE ROSE: It doesn't matter what the secrets are. It is a man that somehow is hiding something.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. Precisely.

CHARLIE ROSE: Take a look at this. This is a trailer from this film, but it gives you a sense, as we spend this hour with Oliver Stone, to take a look at- a sense of this film, and Hopkins and Sorvino and James Woods and others. Nixon, a film by Oliver Stone. Here it is.

[trailer from `Nixon']

ANTHONY HOPKINS, Actor: [portraying Richard Nixon] I grew up here in a little lemon ranch. It was the poorest lemon ranch in California, I can assure you.

1st ACTRESS: Did you? Come with me, [unintelligible].

ANTHONY HOPKINS: My dad sold it before they found oil on it.

And it is time for new leadership for the United States of America, finally.

They always underestimated Nixon, see. Now, they underestimate him [?].

You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore.

PAUL SORVINO, Actor: [portraying Henry Kissinger] In one stroke, the balance of power has shifted to our favor.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Last coronation [?].

1st ACTOR: These kids are useless.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Go on, get him!

NARRATOR: And paid the price of power.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Others may hate you, but those who hate you don' t win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

A fella can't keep a damn secret in this government. They're stealing papers right out of this office. Now, we can create our own intelligence unit right here, inside the White House.

2nd ACTOR: Well, we got the press this time.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: We got the big bow [?]. We're back.

JOAN ALLEN: [portraying Pat Nixon] Do you really want this, Dick? Then I'll be there for you. And we are going to win this time. I can feel it.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Yes, there are divisions in this country.

3rd ACTOR: That's because you created them.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Know, young man, who a great hero is? Abraham Lincoln. He brought this country together.

4th ACTOR: I love that man. I love him.

2nd ACTRESS: Daddy. He's the most decent person I know.

JOAN ALLEN: I don't know the real you.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: If there's anyone in this country that knows more than me, it's Hoover.

5th ACTOR: Why do you think Kissinger is taping oil at the holes [?]. For history.

6th ACTOR: There's a cancer on the presidency, and it's growing.

4th ACTRESS: Do not tell a lie, Richard.

7th ACTOR: If I were to open my mouth, all the dominoes would fall.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: People have got to know whether or not their President is a crook. Well, I am not a crook.

JOAN ALLEN: We're just not going to buckle to these people.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Dead kids. How the hell did we ever give the Democrats a weapon like this? I mean, if Cambodia doesn't work, we'll bomb Hanoi if we have to. Yeah, that's right. If necessary, I'll drop the big one.

[Unintelligible] this is sudden death, gentlemen. We're going to get them on the ground, and stick in our spikes and twist and show them no mercy. Anyone who screws with us, his head comes off. You got that?

8th ACTOR: Aren't you forgetting who put you where you are?

ANTHONY HOPKINS: The American people put me where I am.

8th ACTOR: Well, that can be changed in a heartbeat.

Sir, Congress is considering four articles of impeachment.

9th ACTOR: And the charges are really very serious. One, abuse of power.

JOAN ALLEN: It took me a long time to fall in love with you, Dick, and it doesn't make you happy. You want them to love you.

9th ACTOR: Two, obstruction of justice.

JOAN ALLEN: They never will.

9th ACTOR: Three, failure to cooperate with the Congress, sir.

ACTRESS: How much more is it going to cost? When do the rest of us stop paying off your debts?

ANTHONY HOPKINS: This is Nixon's finish.

10th ACTOR; He's completely lost touch with reality.

9th ACTOR: And last, bombing Cambodia, sir.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: They can't impeach me for bombing Cambodia. The President can bomb anybody he likes.

JOAN ALLEN: Dick, sometimes I understand why they hate you.

4th ACTRESS: Richard, strength in this life, happiness in the next.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Only if you have been in the deepest valley can you ever know how magnificent it is to be on the highest mountain. A man doesn't cry. I don't cry. I fight.

When they look at you and see what they want to be; when they look at me, they see what they are.

CHARLIE ROSE: There it is. A trailer from Nixon, a film that's getting a lot of attention. If you don't believe people are talking about it, look at the cover of Newsweek magazine. `The movie, the history, the controversy.' You dedicate this film to your father.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: Louis?

OLIVER STONE: Louis Stone, yes. He was a stock broker and a wri- a very good writer of economic issues on Wall Street approximately 50 years.

CHARLIE ROSE: And, and he was-

OLIVER STONE: He was-

CHARLIE ROSE: -somehow Nixonian to you, in a sense? He liked Nixon.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. Very-

CHARLIE ROSE: He admired Nixon.

OLIVER STONE: -much so.

CHARLIE ROSE: And he was like Nixon in a way?

OLIVER STONE: In many ways, yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: I don't think he'd admit to that. I think that he was a- you know, one of those Republicans, conservative, but not overly so. He was not a supporter of Goldwater. He basically, like Nixon, came from the Depression era, suffered under Franklin Roosevelt's regime, and felt that, you know, Roosevelt had been a disaster. So a lot of his Republicanism was this anti-New Deal attitude that Nixon had after World War II, and they came back, and they wanted another type of economy. So he supported Eisenhower and was actually given an award by Nixon, a citizenship type award, I forgot what it was. He went down to the White House.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: He was- ultimately, when he got older in his life, and he changed many of his opinions in, in the 1970s. The Pentagon Papers and Watergate disgusted him, you know, and influenced him, and he started to move away from that monolithic point of view that, you know, he- I'd grown up with.

CHARLIE ROSE: You were estranged from him for a long-

OLIVER STONE: One day-

CHARLIE ROSE: -time.

OLIVER STONE: -he came up to me. I'll never forget. He said, `You know, Huck, I was wro-' - Huckleberry, [unintelligible] he called me. He said, `I was wrong, you know. I- ' Maybe he didn't say it quite that way. I'm- he said, `You know, they- what the hell? I mean, what difference does it make if they have missiles in Cuba? I mean, they can put a Russian submarine off of Easthampton. You know, it's only- it's 20 miles away. It doesn't really-' you know. It seemed like the, the, the geopolitical aspect of it sort of sank in late in his life that this nuclear war thing was an insane kind of ideolo- ideology that had built up.

CHARLIE ROSE: As you know, many people are sa- some - not many, some are saying that, you know, that in a sense, they see similarities between you and Nixon.

OLIVER STONE: And you, Charlie, what do you see? I'm sure you-

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, before what I see, let me read you what The Washington Post said, and tell me whether you agree with this. It said, `Among American filmmakers, by far the most Nixonian is Oscar- is Oliver Stone. Both are smart, ruthless, the battle is known [?] for their willingness to play hard ball. Both are fueled by a high octane blend of ambition and idealism. Both are good soldiers willing to lead with their chin and self-improvers who read history for its lessons. Both feel an angry contempt for the Eastern establishment and have control-freak suspicion of the press that verges on hysteria. Both are long-time insiders who feel like unappreciated outsiders. One profound difference: Nixon didn't dare show his real self.' Your point. `Stone is free to act out his most reckless impulses. He wears his wildness like a diamond-studded Stetson.'

OLIVER STONE: Who wrote that? Is that-

CHARLIE ROSE: That was in The Washington Post. John Connor, maybe.

OLIVER STONE: John Powers?

CHARLIE ROSE: John Powers.

OLIVER STONE: That's very well-written, very well-written. Perhaps- I think it's very well-written and probably it's accurate. I, I think that I have the benefit, having grown up in another generation to express my feelings more openly than my father's generation did. I think that they sat on a lot of stuff. My father hardly even touched me physically, you know. It was very rare to get a kiss or a hug or even much encouragement. You know, we were always sort of looking for approvals, much like Nixon with his own father, his mother. So it was, you know, tha- I think we have the benefit of having seen our father's lives, many of my generation or- you know, put it out there emotionally and try to let it out and, and- as the- you know, not be the victim of the secret desires, but who knows?

CHARLIE ROSE: But it clearly shaped you-

OLIVER STONE: Shaped me.

CHARLIE ROSE: -this relationship with your father.

OLIVER STONE: Of course. Of course. My mother, too. You mustn' t slight her. I mean, we all are shaped by them, and- but if you' re going to suggest that I- you know, this movie is my father's life instead of Richard Nixon's, I don't think that's- would be fair to my dad because my father also had things that Richard Nixon didn't have. He did have a wonderful sense of humor. I mean, he was known for it. And he- which is, which is something that Nixon needed very desperately, I think. And if Nixon had had it- a little more of that Ronald Reagan thing of letting things bounce off you and not-

CHARLIE ROSE: You admired that immensely in Ronald Reagan, the capacity not to allow criticism to stick, the Teflon quality he had.

OLIVER STONE: He was great.

CHARLIE ROSE: You know.

OLIVER STONE: He was a master. He was a master. I mean, how else-

CHARLIE ROSE: He wro- it didn't bother him. Not only didn't stick in terms of-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -of- sticking in terms of other people.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. He used it well. He used the concept of public relations. I mean, he was magnificent, the single- you know, the only President that lasted two terms, really, in this era, and basically-

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: -carried out his mandate.

CHARLIE ROSE: A great President?

OLIVER STONE: Great in that sense. Great in achieving a goal that he set out to do. Great- the greatness of his actions, what he did, will have to be judged by- you know, that's a subjective call because you may not like his social programs or his foreign programs - I don' t, particularly - but you have to judge his greatness within the context of his achievement, and he achieved.

CHARLIE ROSE: Richard Reeves wrote a piece about this in The New York Times. What did you think of that piece?

OLIVER STONE: I didn't care for it very much. I think-

CHARLIE ROSE: He was on this program, and you saw him when he was on this program-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -because you reminded me of that.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: Followed by three critics, all of who-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -liked your film.

OLIVER STONE: Oh, good.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, you know that because you thought it balanced it out.

OLIVER STONE: I- Reeves' piece is- posits, you see, me as a, a bit of a straw man. I think that's what always happens in these pieces sometimes, like, I'm the guy who's saying, `Hey, it's only a movie, ' which I never said. I defended what I'm doing as something between entertainment and fact. You know, there is something else called drama, and it has existed for-

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: -literally 1,000 years, more. Sophocles and Antigone. I mean, you can take stories of kings and families and incest and tragedies, and you dramatize them. You, you enter into an arena of poetic metaphor. You try to say a greater truth, sometimes, and fact can bring us- or entertainment can bring us.

CHARLIE ROSE: And what's the greater truth here?

OLIVER STONE: I knew you were going to leave- lead with that one.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, why is that leading, Oliver? I'm not trying to be-

OLIVER STONE: Well, I can't-

CHARLIE ROSE: -contentious. I mean-

OLIVER STONE: -really put a-

CHARLIE ROSE: -you say there's a greater truth, and I say, `What is it?' That's not being contentious or argumentative. It's exploring.

OLIVER STONE: Well, to- my question- I knew you were going to lead with that one. Is that contentious?

CHARLIE ROSE: No. Okay, but go ahead. No.

OLIVER STONE: Well-

CHARLIE ROSE: But you know what I mean. I mean, what, what's the-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -larger truth here about Richard Nixon? That he's a tragic figure-

OLIVER STONE: Mm-hm.

CHARLIE ROSE: -and where there's-

OLIVER STONE: Betrayed by himself, by his own character, his- was his destiny. His sense of aggrievement, his sense of, of revenge and, and paranoia brought him down, destroyed him in front of us publicly in the largest public spectacle we had probably seen in many years. It was an act of self-destruction. It was enormous and, and shocking. But no- beyond Richard Nixon's dramatic in- impulse, inher- worth, is the idea that America itself is going through this with him, because he was our leader, that America's national consciousness is being seen here. And I think it makes us- you know, it gives us the ability now, 20 years after he left, to look back at this event and say, `What happened?' And `What is its meaning in my life?' So many people hate Nixon, right? They have this-

CHARLIE ROSE: Right.

OLIVER STONE: -badge on them: `I hate Nixon.' And so that- it's really part of their identity if they have this. If they lost that identity, it's the same thing as if Nixon would say, `I'm sorry,' or `I, I really screwed up.'

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: I mean, if they dropped the anti-Nixon thing and just- then we could start to move on and evolve into a more conscious possible-

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah. There's an interesting-

OLIVER STONE: [crosstalk]

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, there's an interesting moment in the film in which James Woods, playing Bob Haldeman, says if he'd only said, `I screwed up, we covered up, I- sorry.' And-

OLIVER STONE: I've always that- yeah-

CHARLIE ROSE: -Ehrlichman said - I don't know where you got this, or whether it was made up, but there is a truth to this, because I think-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -what- I mean, whether they said it or not-

OLIVER STONE: I think he-

CHARLIE ROSE: -it was probably true.

OLIVER STONE: I, I was thinking he- Dan Rather said this, too. He- and he knew Nixon very well. He said, `I think that he-' Even as late as the- even after the second term, he could have done it, after he won the second term, some time in '73, he could have gotten off the hook by just saying, `Look-'

CHARLIE ROSE: Me, too.

OLIVER STONE: `-this thing was a disaster, and I covered up, and I, and I did cover up, but I was sorry I did it, but I really was trying to protect our [censored] and we're trying to get through this thing, and I did screw up. But there are more important things in this country than, than this,' and try to come cleaner. That's- I think he would have gotten off the hook as late as '73.

CHARLIE ROSE: How do you want people to come to this film? One, as entertainment. One as an experience-

OLIVER STONE: Mm-hm.

CHARLIE ROSE: -that gives them what? Ideas to think about? A new perspective on-

OLIVER STONE: Emotions.

CHARLIE ROSE: -a man-

OLIVER STONE: Emotions, too. Don't forget the power of cleansing, the power of catharsis. Some people who hated Nixon have told me they cried when they see the movie. They walk out and they said, `I never would have thought I would have cried for that son of a [censored], but I did, and in some way, it healed me. It, it cleansed me of an old scar, and then I- ' You know, the idea is that now, you know, that part of our life is gone forever. Can we deal with it? Can we move on? Can government move beyond this, this lack of trust we have in it? This lack- this disgrace we went through? I mean, these are, these are questions we have to ask ourselves. Can we heal as a nation-

CHARLIE ROSE: How-

OLIVER STONE: -right now. I mean, look at Mr. Dole and Mr. Gingrich, saying so much of what Nixon said in their own way. I mean, hard ball pol- hard ball politics, partisanship.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: What about, you know, reducing government, returning the money to the states and letting the states work it out. A lot of that is Nixon, Nixon issue.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah. It's- one of the interesting things you'll see in the closing segment, which we will show from the film in a few minutes. It is, you show after the final speech by Nixon at the White House, and when he says, `The enemies only really win if you hate them. That's when they've conquered you.' Something to that effect. And then you go to his burial. And there-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -is the President of the United States, the likely nominee of the Democratic Party, talking-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -and then there is Robert Dole-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -crying because he was a political mentor for him-

OLIVER STONE: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: -at the funeral, which makes it somehow-

OLIVER STONE: What was your reaction to that?

CHARLIE ROSE: -contemporary.

OLIVER STONE: What as that- your reaction to that funeral?

CHARLIE ROSE: What was yours?

OLIVER STONE: I asked you first.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well- no, tell me. I mean, why did you close with it? Why was that the last visual of this movie?

OLIVER STONE: It was the last step of his life. He restored himself. He succeeded in what he wanted, which was to re-establish himself as an elder statesman. He wrote books and garnered most of his respect that he, that he sought in his life, he won in his game. He won. I mean, I don't think he did, but that's what most people in the media felt, and they did it. And if you remember the funeral, it was a bit like a John- JFK assassination, a bit like it in the sense that it was very Orwellian in its power. You had President Clinton forgiving him, and you had a President who, who in a sense, always- you know, the media in general didn't go deeper, didn't really bring back the memories, the disgraces of Hiss and Checkers and Watergate and Ellsberg [?] and Chappaquiddick and his- they didn't go into that. It was interesting. But-

CHARLIE ROSE: On the question of Hiss versus Chambers, who do you believe?

OLIVER STONE: I met with Hiss this year. You know, you've asked a very big question. It's a very- it's a movie unto itself, you know. I met with Hiss last year. He's a very old man, and I was struck by the conviction that he held and the emotional intensity that he held at that age. And I must tell you, after- when you see people who have lived with it for so many years, like Garrison in- Jim Garrison - in a belief, that belief, you tend to think, `He, he, he needs it. He has it. He has some understanding, and he has stuck to it until near death.' And I think Mr. Hiss, I do believe that he liked about knowing Chambers, but I don't believe he spied for the Soviet Union.

CHARLIE ROSE: So Chambers lied, or did [unintelligible]?

OLIVER STONE: I believe that Hoover played a role in this, and the oth- and the Catholic priest whose name escapes me, that Nixon very much benefited from it, and I think that there is very much duplicity on Nixon's part. I think that he got his information from the FBI. I think- I don't- I can't prove it. And I think that, you know, they were in cahoots, and I think Ni- Hoover and Nixon became very close in the Hiss, in the Hiss case.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay. Take a look at this. This is back to the relationship. One of the things that everybody points out in this film is Mrs. Nixon. It's a brilliant performance by everybody's account, and it brings her alive, and it puts her there, and you understand. Here are two clips, married together, at different times that show you the relationship in this film. Richard Nixon, Patricia Ryan Nixon.

[Clips from `Nixon']

JOAN ALLEN: I have always stood by you. I campaigned for you when I was pregnant. During Checkers, Ike wanted you out. I told you to fight. This is different, Dick. You've changed. You've grown more bitter, like you're at war with the world. You weren't that way before. I'm 50 years old now, Dick. How many millions of miles have I traveled? How many millions of people's hands have I shaken I just don't like? How many thank you notes have I written? It's as if I, I don't know, just went to sleep a long time, that I missed the years between. I've had enough.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: What are you saying? What are you talking about?

JOAN ALLEN: I want a divorce.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: My God. Divorce. What about the girls?

JOAN ALLEN: The girls will grow up. They only know you from television, anyway.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: It will ruin us, our family.

JOAN ALLEN: You're ruining us. If we stay with you, you'll take us down with you. This isn't political, Dick. This is our life.

Why are you cutting yourself off from the rest of us? Can't we discuss this?

ANTHONY HOPKINS: What exactly do you want to discuss, Pat?

JOAN ALLEN: You. What you're doing.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: What am I doing?

JOAN ALLEN: I wish I knew. You're hiding.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Hiding what?

JOAN ALLEN: Whatever it is you've always been hiding. You're letting it destroy you, Dick. You won't even ask for help.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Bernardo [?], Mrs. Nixon's finished.

CHARLIE ROSE: Boy, all of us wish she had talked.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. We screened the Barbara Walters, I think it was, interview. She really hardly said a thing.

CHARLIE ROSE: There was that- yeah.

OLIVER STONE: A very enclosed and hermetic woman.

CHARLIE ROSE: What do her friends say?

OLIVER STONE: Well, you know, we read as much as we could about her. There's not much written. Her daughter wrote a book. She is mentioned in several histories and people talked about her, and also there are some living people who dealt with her we talked to, and the one- all we could come up with is a sense of, you know, isolation and a sense of sadness, and there was talk about drinking. And, you know, I heard stories about the dinners being pretty short and pretty silent and painful, especially towards that last year and a half, two years, that, you know, there'd be often- that dinner would be served in total silence, and the, the staff in fact was- one of the people said it was just- he wanted to get it over with, it was so painful.

CHARLIE ROSE: Does it disturb you that the family released a statement saying that this movie was maliciously designed to defame and degrade memories?

OLIVER STONE: No. I, I really- I'm sad that they, they feel that way. I understand their distress. It's sometimes, you know, it's an uncomfortable area when a family member is also a member of history, a part of history. And, you know, we, we- you know, we have to- you know, the public, the public sphere is more important, ultimately, than, than the private sphere, you know. And in this case, he crossed a line and - Mr. Nixon. But I, I really wish that they would see the movie because I think it's far more empathetic to, to Richard Nixon than, than they might think, reading the script. Reading the script and making a movie are two different things. Anthony Hopkins gives it a life.

CHARLIE ROSE: Is this movie, for you, a kind of bookend with JFK?

OLIVER STONE: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: How so?

OLIVER STONE: Same area of American history. It very much crosses the same territory, but seen from two different points of view. In fact, you could even add on and say that The Doors is its own view of that same period, too, but seen from a different prism. If you imagine a real event, a real period of our time, and you were to look at it in a 360-degree fashion, you would find characters like Ron Kovic [?] in Born on the Fourth of July, or Leily Hayslip [?] in Heaven and Earth, and you might be able to move around this central event and look at it from different sides.

CHARLIE ROSE: Tell me what this body of work of yours is about, in your own words.

OLIVER STONE: Charlie, you're very prescient, but I can't tell you because it's evolving as I speak, and each time I, you know, I've seen you a few years. I've come on every couple of years-

CHARLIE ROSE: Right.

OLIVER STONE: -or something, and I talk about another movie-

CHARLIE ROSE: You've made 10 movies in 10 years.

OLIVER STONE: Ten years, and I think you've seen different phases of, of the moon. If, if you grant that consciousness, the pure act of consciousness is like the moon- I have a place out in Colorado, and I just love to look at the moon, and sometimes it's full, sometimes it's half full, or it's just a slice, or it's not there. And sometimes our consciousness works that way. It's not like you move in a, in a straight line to being a wiser person, but it's just- it's sort of a revolving consciousness. You know, am I being too abstract here? But I've grown through these movies. I've learned so much about my life and-

CHARLIE ROSE: About your life?

OLIVER STONE: Yeah, and also about America and about- you know, we deal with a lot of actors when you make a film like this. You deal with a lot of extras and people, and you get- you, you immerse yourself in a period. You do research. You talk to John Dean [?] or Alex Butterfield, Howard Hunt.

CHARLIE ROSE: Butterfield and Dean are consultants to this film for you.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. And John Sears [?], too, and John Newman [?], and Bob Shear [?]. I mean, we've got quite a few consultants.

CHARLIE ROSE: What do they say to the criticisms of people like Stephen Ambrose [?], an historian, who spoke to this and said even where he is cited, it's an erroneous interpretation, where you cite him in these footnotes in this book.

OLIVER STONE: Oh, God. I think you'd have to be- he'd have to be a little more specific. I'd like to know what he means because very rarely would we cite only Ambrose. We would be citing more than one source in these things. I, I can't answer the question unless it' s a specific one.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay.

OLIVER STONE: But Ambrose is- we find is very centrist and conservative in his historical interpretation of Nixon, and I say this knowing how respected he is in the field. But you have to look at his books, all three volumes he did, all three volumes. He knows a lot about Nixon, but nowhere does he really go into the darker areas of what Mr. Nixon might have been up to as a very- as a Vice President who was very much in the foreign realm, very involved in the foreign realm.

CHARLIE ROSE: And that's what interests you the most.

OLIVER STONE: No, not only. But I- my point to you is that as a historian, why doesn't he do that? There is something inherently conservative in his approach. That's my point.

CHARLIE ROSE: Then tell me what you believe about-

OLIVER STONE: That's a different question.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay. Well, I understand. I'll ask it [unintelligible]. What do you believe about Richard Nixon and his knowledge of the assassination, attempts by the CIA in cahoots with the Mafia against Castro, and whether that led to the assassination of President Kennedy, and whether Nixon felt some grief, responsibili- not grief over the death, but grief over somehow he might have said-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. Good question. Good question, and, you know, it's a tough-

CHARLIE ROSE: You believe.

OLIVER STONE: -it's a long answer, and I want to be short as much as possible, but I do believe- and we show Nixon being very very distraught by the assassination of John Kennedy - obviously not involved in, in any overt way, and knowing or sensing that something else, some forces running this- running the country, dominating the country's leadership, that there's something in control, something almost demonic. He says at one point, looking into the fire. `What's helping us, Abe-' Lincoln. He talks to Abe Lincoln. `Is it God, or is it death?' Nixon had to be obsessed with death. Two of his younger brothers died. He loved those brothers, I believe, and I think their loss devastated him in life, and then the Kennedy Brothers died. Jack Kennedy cleared the way in his own way for Nixon's ascendancy, and Robert Kennedy, if he had not died, I believe, would have won the 1968 election, so death played a very important part in Richard Nixon's life.

CHARLIE ROSE: And you have Nixon saying, when Robert Kennedy lay dying-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -on a hotel room-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -kitchen-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -floor, he knew at that moment he'd be President.

OLIVER STONE: 20Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: Now, did-

OLIVER STONE: That's obviously a-

CHARLIE ROSE: Explain that. I mean, that's obviously dramatic license to make a point-

OLIVER STONE: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: -that Nixon somehow, in your judgment, believed that because of the deaths only, he became President because-

OLIVER STONE: Oh, yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -the Kennedy brothers died.

OLIVER STONE: He was a major power player, Nixon. He knew the mathematics. He, he- I think, and he understood that Robert Kennedy had a lot of charism, had a very strong anti-war emotional vote going, and he was in trouble. So that, that, that's the basis of our speculation. Intuition, call it.

CHARLIE ROSE: But tell me-

OLIVER STONE: But I want to go back because you say, you know, what was haunting him, and I can't presume to tell you that I know the secrets of Richard Nixon. However, I do believe that along with J. Edgar Hoover and people like Helms, Nixon knew a lot more than was apparent and that he would be-

CHARLIE ROSE: About what?

OLIVER STONE: -about, let's just say, across the board, in every-

CHARLIE ROSE: No. But you're thinking specifics.

OLIVER STONE: -every depar- every department of government, I think he knew a hell of a lot more than he ever let on. He was a man by all accounts who could go into a budget meeting and break down a budget. This is a serious- a man who knew detail and had a good grasp of policy and how it was shaped. He spent eight years under Eisenhower, eight years as Vice President. He was in charge- he was fascinated by Cuba. He went there many times, condemned Castro - after his meeting with him - as a communist, and in 1959 and 1960 was, you know, in charge of the special project on Cuba inside the White House. He came into contact with numerous people who were setting up the paramilitary operations that were done to attack Cuba. Are you with, with me?

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, I'm with you.

OLIVER STONE: Okay. So they called it Track One.

CHARLIE ROSE: And what about Track Two.

OLIVER STONE: Track Two was a, a natural offshoot of Track One. It was ca- it was part of the invasion plan. It was to kill- to assassinate the head of government, Castro. And that was put into effect before Kennedy under the Eisenhower regime. Nixon has plausible deniability, there is no question. But do you think, do you really think in 1959, Allen Dulles would have signed an order, countenancing the assassination of Castro, and operated totally off the shelf without Nixon or Eisenhower' s permission? It's not too far for me to suggest no in my movie, particularly as several years later, when Nixon is President, he repeatedly mentions on the tape of June 20 and June 23, the concept of Cuba and the concept of Bay of Pigs, the Bay of Pigs thing. This is after Hunt is arrested. Hunt goes back to his Cuban days. He knew Hunt through Cushman, who was his aide. I get into a lot of names.

CHARLIE ROSE: But-

OLIVER STONE: But the point is, as Vice President, this man, who traveled the whole world and knew the- and knew Allen Dulles very well, was not just an innocent. He had to be given plausible deniability by the CIA in this event. I mean, that's- that was the way they functioned. Helms admitted as much in 1978, that they would never implicate a leader in something like this.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, it is also said that- I mean, I've read this. I think this might have been in Newsweek, I don't know, but I- where I read this, that Helms hired a lawyer and, and that that, in a sense, caused you to back off from making-

OLIVER STONE: No. Not at all.

CHARLIE ROSE: -some-

OLIVER STONE: Not at all.

CHARLIE ROSE: You've read that, though, have you not?

OLIVER STONE: No. I, I-

CHARLIE ROSE: That Helms had a lawyer-

OLIVER STONE: No.

CHARLIE ROSE: -and that you-

OLIVER STONE: I, I received a letter from Helms' lawyer, absolutely. I remember the letter. It was, you know, threatening and all that, but we received letters like that frequently. No, it was dealt with via insurance company. It would have been easily put in the movie. I shot the scene- I cut the scene for length, just because it was a good scene, but it ultimately didn't-

CHARLIE ROSE: What's the purpose-

OLIVER STONE: -essential.

CHARLIE ROSE: -of the scene with John Dean and Howard Hunt, who in most- everybody- nobody- and John Dean would have told you this, never have happened - on a bridge? What's-

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. The point of it was to-

CHARLIE ROSE: -the point of that scene, which people point to a lot?

OLIVER STONE: We're condensing material.

CHARLIE ROSE: Right.

OLIVER STONE: I mean, you grant that Howard Hunt blackmailed the President successfully, and he was paid off. You know that. Yes? You grant that.

CHARLIE ROSE: I don't- no, I don't grant that because-

OLIVER STONE: Okay.

CHARLIE ROSE: -I mean, tell me how we know he-

OLIVER STONE: Well, it-

CHARLIE ROSE: -blackmailed the President? But-

OLIVER STONE: -it's a long- you know- well, a lot of the Watergate tapes, the reasons that he was impeached, was because he countenan- Nixon approved the payoffs to Hunt, you see.

CHARLIE ROSE: Right.

OLIVER STONE: So in these conversations with these transcripts that finally came out to the public light, we have Nixon agreeing to pay off Hunt, to keep his silence. So, those payoffs were made, we know that. That's a fact. It was done- Dean handled the payoffs, but he did not meet directly with Hunt, but he handled them through third parties, such as Coleson [?]. The question is do you introduce a third party like Coleson-

CHARLIE ROSE: All right.

OLIVER STONE: -so late in the film in order to make a, a payoff.

CHARLIE ROSE: So the objective reality of that is, for you-

OLIVER STONE: The objective reality is correct because Hunt got paid. He successfully blackmailed the White House. I took dramatic license to show the potential- the, the central problem of the issue was what John Dean would stay loyal to the President. That was the key turning point in his- Nixon would have gotten away with it if Jo- unless John Dean had buckled. And something was bugging John Dean. It was the Hunt business. We, we dealt with it on the grid.

CHARLIE ROSE: This is- I think, back to Richard Reeves. Take a look at this tape, which is about some of the issues we're talking about. Here it is, Richard Reeves on this broadcast, referred to earlier.

[Clip from `Charlie Rose' 12/14/95]

RICHARD REEVES, Author/Historian: There is- I'm not a great Oliver Stone fan, but there's a wonderful made up scene in the movie where Nixon is standing in front of a, of a portrait of Kennedy and saying, you know, `They loved him. They loved him. Why not me?' and Pat Nixon comes up behind him and says, `They loved him because he was lovable.'

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah. But isn't there also a scene in which - I haven' t seen the movie, as I say-

RICHARD REEVES: Oh.

CHARLIE ROSE: -but in which he says- Nixon looks at a picture of Kennedy, and he says, `You represent what they want to be. I represent what they are.'

RICHARD REEVES: `What they are.' That was a good- that was a good line. There were- there's a- he did a- Oliver Stone is Nixon. Nixon and Oliver Stone, as far as I can tell, see the world pretty much the same way. They're-

CHARLIE ROSE: This film was dedicated to Oliver Stone's father-

RICHARD REEVES: Father, who went bankrupt on Wall Street-

CHARLIE ROSE: On Wall Street.

RICHARD REEVES: -and Stone hates Wall Street and the Ivy League and, and money, and the-

CHARLIE ROSE: And the system.

RICHARD REEVES: -establishment, and then the system.

CHARLIE ROSE: System.

RICHARD REEVES: So they're both paranoid, actually.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

RICHARD REEVES: But it- he had a moving scene which I think comes from his life, not from, from Richard Nixon, in which Nixon is kind of blubbering about losing the 1960 election and having it stolen - the votes in Texas, the votes in, in Chicago - saying `You had everything. You had everything. Why did you steal the only thing I had?' I think that's Oliver Stone. I don't think that's the Richard Nixon that I knew.

CHARLIE ROSE: Is that Oliver Stone? Did you understand that?

OLIVER STONE: No. He was known to complain. He thought about a recount in 1960. In fact, he almost went to a recount. They pulled him out of it. He says one thing in his memoirs. Other people say other things, but essentially, if he had asked for the recount and- it would have not only stalled the country for six months, but it would have finished him politically if he'd been in any way wrong. And he didn't have the act- it was a big move. He couldn't do it.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah. What his true, though, about-

OLIVER STONE: He complained a lot about losing. In fact-

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: -Kennedy shaped his sense that Kennedy had stolen the election. It allowed, it justified in his mind the concept of upping the dirty tricks game, you know. You can pretty much- means to an end. You know, cut corners if necessary.

CHARLIE ROSE: There is a scene in the film, in fact, with J. Edgar Hoover at a racetrack in which you see-

OLIVER STONE: Mm-hm.

CHARLIE ROSE: -him, Richard Nixon, saying to Hoover, `I'm not going to let them steal it again.'

OLIVER STONE: That's right. That's right. And he played-

CHARLIE ROSE: Because he felt like they'd stolen Chicago-

OLIVER STONE: Nixon played a-

CHARLIE ROSE: -and they'd stolen-

OLIVER STONE: By all accounts, all historical accounts, Nixon had a much tougher '68, '72 campaign than he did in 1960.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: If anything, he was, he was called a little soft in 1960.

CHARLIE ROSE: You acknowledge these references and these comparisons in The Washington Post between you and Richard Nixon. I mean, Ri- Dick Reeves there says paranoid, hates-

OLIVER STONE: I- yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -Wall Street, hates the American-

OLIVER STONE: These are-

CHARLIE ROSE: -system, his-

OLIVER STONE: These are simplifications, and I- you know, I'm a different type personality than- that's a simplistic version of me. I, I don' t think Richard Nixon would ever have made films like Born on the Fourth of July, you see. I'm very compassionate and loving and caring about America, and I really- I think that Richard Reeves forgets that, you know, dissident thought is allowable in this country, and that we-

CHARLIE ROSE: What's a dissident thought?

OLIVER STONE: It's- I suppose you could call it unofficial, unofficial history, shadows of history. You could call it antiestablishment thinking. [Crosstalk]

CHARLIE ROSE: And you are saying with Jim Garrison and with some interpretations of Nixon and what he may or may not have known about Cuba and what it may or not have led to, you are saying to America, `This is my movie. This is my Nixon.' Because a lot of people say, `This is not a historic Nixon. This is the reason I wrote this- the introduction the way I did. This is Oliver Stone's Nixon. This is the way Oliver Stone saw Nixon. This is the filmmaker's Nixon. He wants to put it out there as worthy of consideration and worthy of discussion about a central figure in America and about secrets, about conspiracies, about flaws, about tragic, about possibilities of greatness denied by those qualities.'

OLIVER STONE: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I- you could say it's a Nixon. This is no- we never said this is the definitive Nixon, but we did an enormous amount of research, and where- you know, what a drama is is well-documented research, but combined with intuition, to go behind closed doors and into secret meetings and to take licenses with them based on research. I would argue with Mr. Reeves on every single point in both JFK and Nixon, and I think that you should be looking at Mr. Reeves a little bit more critically. He wrote a book about John Kennedy where, you know, he resails [?] his character repeatedly.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: And he ignores the assassination. I mean, I think he, he basically deals with it in a few pages, and he never even raises - raises - the possibility of conspiracy to murdering or motive.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: And I'm saying there's something lacking when you do not look to those shadows. I mean, why does it require a filmmaker to question this and be berated for it when historians should be doing this?

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: Bear in mind, what I brought to, to the forefront with the JFK movie was not original material, Charlie. It was all material that had been around since the 1960s. It was a body, a growing body of evidence from people from all over the country that had assembled this evidence in opposition to the Warren Commission. It was not original material. I don't know why it was treated as-

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah.

OLIVER STONE: -it were.

CHARLIE ROSE: But, Oliver, this is not a new point of view to you, that most people - most - the major- let me finish.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: The majority of people believe that you placed way too much credence on Jim Garrison, and that's a fair and reasonable statement to say, and I believe that.

OLIVER STONE: You could argue that.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay. I mean, arg- and you want to say, `Look, here is what Jim Garrison believed, and this is the soul of my movie, and all- Here is the Warren Commission, a lot of other people, you know, and even what's maybe halfway in between-'

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: `-on- which may not have gotten it right, but the alternative and the best theory may not be Jim Garrison, and Jim Garrison may have done a lot of things that were more flawed than-'

OLIVER STONE: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: `-than any other interpretation, including the Warren Commission.'

OLIVER STONE: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay.

OLIVER STONE: No. No. Not the last thing. I think the Warren Commission was as-

CHARLIE ROSE: Was more flawed than Jim Garrison.

OLIVER STONE: -flawed in many ways.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay.

OLIVER STONE: I mean, and the fact that they didn't get-

CHARLIE ROSE: Let me go to this because I want to show- this is your film, and this is about this movie. This is Richard Nixon showing you another aspect of him and the brilliance of Anthony Hopkins as Nixon, Paul Sorvino as Kissinger, and James Woods as Haldeman and others. Here it is.

[`Nixon']

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Henry's getting strong signals from the Chinese, how they fear the Vietnamese more than the Russians, and they're worried about a united Vietnam. Now, if we stick it out, we'll end up negotiating separately with both the Chinese and the Soviets, and we'll get better deals than we ever dreamed of from both. That is triangular diplomacy, gentlemen.

PAUL SORVINO: Exactly, Mr. President. That's what geopolitics is about: the linking of the whole world to a self-interest.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: So you tell me, Ron, how the hell I can explain that on TV to a bunch of simpleminded reporters and weeping mothers.

1st ACTOR: Yeah, but what am I telling the press about Kent State?

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Oh, tell them what the hell you like. I don't care. They don't understand, anyway.

2nd ACTOR: Excuse me, sir. Are you saying you're going to recognize Red China? I mean, that would cost us our strongest support.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: No. I can do this because I spent my whole career building anti-communist credentials.

2nd ACTOR: If Kennedy or Johnson had tried it, they'd have crucified them, and rightfully so.

3rd ACTOR: Damned risky, Mr. President.

4th ACTOR: Why don't we wait until the second term?

2nd ACTOR: This will get us a second term, John.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: This will get me a second term. Damn it! Without risk, there is no heroism, there is no history. Nixon was born to do this, give history a nudge. Come on. I mean, if Cambodia doesn' t work, we'll bomb Hanoi if we have to. That's right, and if necessary, I'll drop the big one.

PAUL SORVINO: Now, we all know that you are clean, right? Then let' s take off the gloves. Let's do a housecleaning.

5th ACTOR: Housecleaning?

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Oh, it could be ugly, Henry, really ugly.

PAUL SORVINO: It must be done, sir. Your government is-

ANTHONY HOPKINS: [Unintelligible] It could come out, the Ellsberg thing.

5th ACTOR: Yeah. Even you knew about that one, didn't you, Henry?

PAUL SORVINO: Well, I heard something. It sounded idiotic.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Idiotic, I suppose it was.

5th ACTOR: I thought it was your idea to expose Ellsberg as a sex fiend. I guess somebody just took you too literally.

PAUL SORVINO: I never suggested that a bunch of imbeciles break into a psychiatrist's office-

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Doesn't matter, Henry. The point is you might lose some of your media darling halo if the media start sniffing around our dirty laundry.

PAUL SORVINO: Sir, I never had anything to do with that, and I resent the implication that I did.

ANTHONY HOPKINS: Resent it all you want, Henry. When you're in with the rest of us, Cambodia, Ellsberg, the wiretaps you put in. The President wants you to know you can't just click your heels and head back to Harvard Yard. It's your ass, too, Henry. It's in the wind, twisting with everyone else's.

PAUL SORVINO: Sir, there are times when even the President can go too far.

CHARLIE ROSE: We're near the end of this hour. There is also a character played by Larry Hagman.

OLIVER STONE: Yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: Conservative, right wing, Texas boy.

OLIVER STONE: Mm-hm.

CHARLIE ROSE: What's the point? What's the- what do you wa- saying there?

OLIVER STONE: Well, actually, if you examine the scene, there's- the implication is that they are really fed up with Kennedy, an they were. The oil, the oil depletion allowance had knocked out a lot of their earning power, and you have to look at Nixon's past. I mean, he was supported early on in his life by California rich men, and he had- he formed a new coalition of allies in the southwest. So he had money men behind him all his life. In fact, the Checkers crisis was about- the slush fund was about that. People like Clint Burgess and Howard Hunt - the other Hunt - and were always there-

CHARLIE ROSE: But there's nothing to indicate-

OLIVER STONE: -in his life.

CHARLIE ROSE: -that somehow they were financing the-

OLIVER STONE: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

CHARLIE ROSE: -assassination.

OLIVER STONE: No. They didn't. I- there's no indication in the movie of-

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay. [Unintelligible]

OLIVER STONE: -that. No.

CHARLIE ROSE: I just want to make sure that- we want-

OLIVER STONE: But certainly, you have to look at the connection between, you know, rich Texans - Dallas, the anti-Cuban- Castro- the anti- Castro forces and the financing that went to them. And you have to ask yourself who put up the money for a lot of that stuff.

CHARLIE ROSE: We're out of time. I thank you, Oliver, for coming and spending this hour with me. We will see, as we go out, the last scene of this film, which is the resignation speech.

OLIVER STONE: Mm.

CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you for joining us.

OLIVER STONE: Thank you, Charlie.

CHARLIE ROSE: Pleasure.

[`Nixon']

ANTHONY HOPKINS: We think sometimes when things happen that don't go the right way, we think that when someone dear to us dies, when we lose an election, when we suffer a defeat that all is ended. Not true. It's only a beginning always because the greatness comes not when things go always good for you, but the greatness comes and you' re really tested when you take some knocks, some disappointments, when sadness comes, because only if you've been in the deepest valley can you ever know how magnificent it is to be on the highest mountain.

Stone on `Nixon'., Charlie Rose (PBS), 01-01-1996.