Subject: Ted At Work Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:48:00 GMT From: Sam McClung Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk 1977 Senate Hearing Testimony of former CIA Employee John Gittinger in project MKULTRA, the CIA's program of research in behavior modification (aka your tax money at work?): Senator KENNEDY. And did he inform you about the research projects involving LSD? Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. It is my understanding that you were also aware of some of the drug testing projects conducted on unwitting subjects on the west coast using the Bureau of Narcotics people in the operation. Is that true? Mr. GITTINGER. I was. Senator INOUYE. Excuse me. Would you speak into the microphone? I cannot hear you. Mr. GITTINGER. Sorry. Senator KENNEDY. Do you know which drugs were involved in those tests? Mr. GITTINGER. LSD. And I can't remember for sure much of the others. What is the substance of marihuana, cannabis, is that right, that can be delivered by other than smoking? Senator KENNEDY. Cannabis? Mr. GITTINGER. There had been some discussion of that; yes. Senator KENNEDY. And was heroin also used? Mr. GITTINGER. Heroin used by CIA? Senator KENNEDY. No. In the west coast operation. Mr. GITTINGER. Absolutely not. Senator KENNEDY. Now, to your knowledge, how were the drugs administered to the unwitting subjects? Mr. GITTINGER. I have no direct knowledge. Senator KENNEDY. Why did you go to the safe houses? Mr. GITTINGER. It's a very complicated story. Just in justification of myself, this came up just, day before yesterday. I have not really had enough time to get it all straightened in my mind, so I ramble. Senator KENNEDY. Well, you take your time and tell us in your own words. We've got some time here. Mr. GITTINGER. My responsibilities which would involve any of the period of time that you were talking about really was not directly related to drugs at all. I was a psychologist charged with the responsibility of trying to develop as much information as I could on various cultures, overseas cultures, anthropological type data, if you follow what I mean. I was also engaged in trying to work out ways and means of assessing people and understanding people. I originally became involved in this through working on Chinese culture, and over a series of time I was introduced to the problem of brainwashing, which is the thing that really was the most compelling thing in relationship to this, and became charged with the responsibility of trying to find out a little bit about interrogation techniques. -57- And among other things, we decided or I decided that one of the best sources of interrogation techniques would be trying to locate and interview and become involved with experienced police interrogators in the country and experienced people who had real practical knowledge of interrogation. The reason for this is that we had become pretty well convinced after the experience of the brainwashing problems coming out of China, that it was the techniques of the interrogators that were causing the individuals to make confessions and so forth in relationship to this, rather than any kind of drugging and so forth. So we were very much interested in interrogation techniques, and this led to me being introduced to the agent in the west coast, and I began to talk to him in connection with these interrogation techniques. Senator KENNEDY. OK. Now, that is the agent that ran the tests on the west coast on the unwitting people. That's where you come in, correct? Mr. GITTINGER. If I understand -- would you say that again? Senator KENNEDY. The name Morgan Hall has been -- that is the name that has been used. Mr. GITTINGER. Yes. Senator KENNEDY. And that is the agent that you met with. Mr. GITTINGER. That is right. Senator KENNEDY. And you met at the safe house. Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. Whom did you meet with in the safe house? Mr. GITTINGER. This is the part that is hard for me to say, and I am sorry that I have to. In connection with some work that we were doing, we needed to have some information on sexual habits. Morgan Hall provided informants for me, to talk to in connection with the sex habits that I was interested in trying to find information. During one period of time the safe house, as far as I was concerned, was used for just these particular type of interviews. And I didn't see the red curtains. Senator KENNEDY. Those were prostitutes, were they? Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. How many different times were you there that you had similar-- Mr. GITTINGER. I couldn't possibly say with any certainty on that. Four or five times. Senator KENNEDY. Four or five times. Mr. GITTINGER. Over -- you remember now, the period that I'm talking about when I would have any involvement in this is from about 1956 to 1961. So it's about a 4- or 5-year period which is the only time that I know anything about what you are talking about here today. Senator KENNEDY. Did Morgan Hall make the arrangements for the prostitutes to meet with you? Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. Did the interviews that you had have anything to do with drugs? Mr. GITTINGER. Well, as I tried to explain earlier when this was being discussed a little bit beforehand, again I think it is pretty hard for most people now to recognize how little there was known about drugs at the period of time that we are talking about, because the -58- drug age or the drug culture comes later on. Consequently, those of us who had any responsibility in this area were interested in trying to get as much information as we could on the subculture, the subculture drug groups, and obviously the Bureau of Narcotics represented a means of doing this. Consequently, other types of things that were involved in discussions at that time would have to do with the underground use of drugs. When I am talking about this I am talking about the folkways in terms of unwitting use of drugs. Did these people that I was talking to have any information about this and on rare instances they were able to tell me about their use, and in most cases this would largely turn out to be a Mickey Finn or something of that sort rather than anything esoteric. I also was very much interested because we had relatively little information, believe it or not, at that time, in terms of the various reactions that people were having to drugs. Therefore, these people were very informative in terms of they knew a great deal of information about reactions. Senator KENNEDY. At least you gathered -- or am I correct in assuming that you gathered the impression that the prostitutes that you had talked to were able to slip the drugs to people as I understand it. Did you form any impression on that? Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly did not form the impression that, they did this as a rule or-- Senator KENNEDY. But they bad the knowledge. Mr. GITTINGER. They had the knowledge or some of them had had knowledge of this being done. But again, as it turned out, it was largely in this area of knockout drops. Senator KENNEDY. Looking back now did you form any impression about how the Agency was actually testing the broad spectrum of social classes in these safe houses? With the large disbursal of cash in small quantities, $100 bills and the kinds of elaborate decorations and two-way mirrors in the bedrooms and all the rest, is there any question in your own mind what was going on in the safe houses, or the techniques that were being used to administer these drugs? Mr. GITTINGER. I find it very difficult to answer that question, sir. I had absolutely no direct knowledge there was a large number of this. I had no knowledge that anyone other than -- than Morgan Hall was in any way involved in the unwitting administration of drugs. Senator KENNEDY. But Gottlieb would know, would he not? Mr. GITTINGER. I believe so, yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. Could we go into the Human Ecology Foundation and talk about that and how it was used as an instrument in terms of the support of research? Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. Could you describe it to us? Could you describe the Human Ecology Foundation, how it functioned and how it worked? Mr. GITTINGER. May I tell something about how it evolved, which I think is important? Senator KENNEDY. Sure. Mr. GITTINGER. The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, so-called, was actually a -- I am confused here now as to whether I should name you names. -59- Senator KENNEDY. Well, we're not interested in names or institutions, so we prefer that you do not. That has to be worked out in arrangements between Admiral Turner and the individuals and the institutions. But we're interested in what the Foundation really was and how it functioned and what its purpose was. Mr. GITTINGER. Well, it was established to undertake research in the general area of the behavioral sciences. It definitely had almost no focus or interest in, say, drug-related type of activities except in a very minor way, because it was largely set up to attempt to gain a certain amount of information and to fund projects which were psychological, sociological, anthropological in character. It was established in the sense of a period of time that a lot of us who are in it wish we could do it over again, but we were interested in trying to get together a panel of the most representative high-level behavioral scientists we could to oversee and help in terms of developing the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology type of program. The Agency in effect provided the money. They did not direct the projects. Now, the fact of the matter is, there are a lot of innocent people who received the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology money which I know for a fact they were never asked to do anything for the CIA but they did get through this indirectly. They had no knowledge that they were getting CIA money. Senator KENNEDY. Over what period of time did this take place? Mr. GITTINGER. As far as I was concerned , it was the period of time ending in 1961. 1 believe the Human Ecology fund finally phased out in 1965, but I was not involved in this phasing out. Senator KENNEDY. Can you give the range of the different sort of individual projects of the universities in which it was active? Mr. GITTINGER. Well, it would have as many as -- I am very fuzzy on my memory on the number of projects. It is over 10, 20, 30. Senator KENNEDY. After it made the grants, what was the relationship of the Agency with the results of the studies? The Foundation acquired the money to make the grants from the Agency, and then it made the grants to these various research programs. Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. And that included eight universities as well as individual researchers? Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. Then what follow-up was there to that, sir? Mr. GITTINGER. Well, in every sense of the word, the organization was run exactly like any other foundation, and it carried with it the same thing in terms of making certain that the people that they had given money to used it for the purpose for which it had been granted, that they had access to any of the reports that they had put out, but there were no strings attached to anybody. There wasn't any reason they couldn't publish anything that they put out. Senator KENNEDY. What, sort of budget are we talking about here? Mr. GITTINGER. I honestly do not remember. I would guess we are talking in the realm of about $150,000 a year, but don't hold me to that, because I don't know. -60- Senator KENNEDY. What is your view about such funding as a professional person, in terms of compromising the integrity of a university, sir? Mr. GITTINGER. Well, obviously, sir, insofar as today there is no question about it. I will have to say at the time that we were doing this there was quite an entirely different kind of an attitude, and I do know for a fact that we moved to start towards phasing out the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology and the Human Ecology Fund for the very reason that we were beginning to recognize that it was moving into an area but this would be compromised. Senator KENNEDY. Well, that is commendable, both your attitude and the reasons for it, but during that period of time it still was involved in behavior research programs, as I understand it. Mr. GITTINGER. Yes, sir. On its own, in connection with this, it participated again, and these again were not CIA-directed projects, but these were all things which would theoretically contribute to the general knowledge at the time where the things like the study of the Hungarian refugees -- obviously, the study of the Hungarian refugees who came to this country after the Hungarian revolt was a very useful exercise to try to get information about the personality characteristics of the Communists and so forth. Senator KENNEDY. Were there other foundations that were doing similar kinds of work? Mr. GITTINGER. Not to my knowledge, sir. Senator KENNEDY. You believe-- Mr. GITTINGER. You mean, CIA, other CIA? Senator KENNEDY. Right. Mr. GITTINGER. Well, my answer is in the sense that I know of no other CIA foundations, no. There were, of course, other foundations doing similar kinds of work in the United States. Senator KENNEDY. Have you heard of the Psychological Assessments Foundation? Mr. GITTINGER. I certainly have. Senator KENNEDY. What was that? What function did that have? Mr. GITTINGER. Now, this was bringing us up to a different era. I believe the functions of that organization have nothing whatsoever to do with the things that are being talked about here while I was associated with it. Senator KENNEDY. Rather than getting into the work, it was another foundation, was it not? It was another foundation supported by the Agency? Mr. GITTINGER. What, the Psychological Assessment? Senator KENNEDY. Yes. Mr. GITTINGER. No, sir, it was not. Senator KENNEDY. It did not get any support at all from the Agency? Mr. GITTINGER. Oh, yes, sir. It did get support, but it was a business firm. Senator KENNEDY. It was a business but it got support from the Agency? Mr. GITTINGER. It got money from it, but it definitely was not in MKULTRA or in any way associated with this. -61- Senator KENNEDY. All right. I want to thank you for your helpful testimony, Mr. Gittinger. It is not easy to go back into the past. I think you have been very fair in your characterizations, and I think it is quite appropriately indicated that there are different standards now from what they were 25 years ago, and I think you have responded very fairly and completely to the inquiries, and I think with a good deal of feeling about it. You are a person who is obviously attempting to serve the country's interest, so I want to thank you very much for your statement and for your helpful timeliness. Mr. GITTINGER. Thank you, sir.