Subject: Belated Response To Jerry Re: MC Station Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:43:31 GMT From: bishopm@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk Jerry: First, allow me to express my thanks and compliments for the civility your displayed in your last reply to me. I will attempt to respond in kind. When I previously wrote: >Again, Jerry, I am NOT arguing that there was something odd about the > October 1 intercept being red-flagged, for it should have been. But > this was no less true of the September 27 intercept. you asked for more information: “So just tell me how you would have handled it if you'd been in charge.” And yet when I provided same: > If my CoS had asked the perfectly legitimate question "Possible to > identify?" I would have made an attempt to do so. I am NOT suggesting > that it should necessarily have been completed successfully, but SOME > attempt, ANY attempt, would have demonstrated a sincere effort. > Instead, the issue was "reviewed and filed." You suggest that a good > faith effort to do so was not undertaken because MC station was >swamped with work and couldn't properly assess the data as it arrived. >This in itself is an admission that the station was NOT "smoothly >functioning" per your prior posts. you apparently grew fatigued: “Right, let's move on. I'm becoming bored with this topic.” I fail to understand what compels one to demand more information, then refuse to deal with it when provided. In the very next instance, rather than simply plead boredom, you switched instead to a lack of awareness: >You also failed to answer the question about the importance of Ms. >Duran to the station. She had already been identified as Lechuga's sex >partner, and had already been considered for recruitment/cooption, by >placing a US national between her sheets. ANY phone call from her >regarding an "American" should have piqued interest for that fact >alone. “Sylvia Duran had recently begun her job - I think it some 4-5 weeks previously. I don't know when she was "identified as [Carlos] Lechuga's sex partner" - perhaps you could tell me. I don't know when she was "considered for recruitment" - maybe you could tell me.” Jerry, you’ve read the Win Scott manuscript, and the Phillips HSCA testimony in this regard, so why do you plead ignorance? A redacted portion of Scott’s manuscript [Lechuga’s name was excised ] alluded to using Duran for MC station’s purposes, no doubt exploiting her relationship with Lechuga as the necessary leverage. When read the pertinent portion, Phillips expressed surprise and told the HSCA: ”No one let me in on this operation.” It seemed as though Phillips acknowledged whatever was contained in Scott’s manuscript must be true, before switching gears and expressing doubts that Duran had ever been pitched, “because the station could not identify her weaknesses.” At this point, Phillips was read what the Lopez Report called “reporting on file” [precise document undisclosed, though it must have originated prior to Oswald’s visit in order to make any sense], and was forced to relent. Phillips ended up admitting, in the words of the Lopez Report, “…it did indeed sound as if the Station had targeted Ms. Duran for recruitment, that the Station’s interest had been substantial, and that the weaknesses and means had been identified.” Phillips’ odd denial of awareness then is mirrored by your own odd denial of awareness now. Moreover, whatever you think the station didn’t know about Duran prior to Oswald’s visit was apparently soon thereafter rectified. On 11/23/63, in asking for Duran’s arrest, detention and interrogation, MC station provided the Mexicans with Duran’s home and work address, her home and work phone numbers, her automobile licence plate number, along with the addresses of both Duran’s mother and brother. When taken alongside the foregoing “reporting on file,” this seems to be a fairly detailed synopsis of critical data, if you’re arguing that MC station had no compelling reason to interest itself in Duran, her sex partners, her potential weaknesses, etc. I’m also intrigued by your professed ignorance of Duran’s longevity at the Cuban consulate. No, Jerry; Duran HADN’T “…recently begun her job - I think it some 4-5 weeks previously.” In point of fact, she commenced work there in 1959 and left in 1964. For a man so intimately acquainted with the inner workings of MC station, its protocols and targets of interest, your lack of data on Duran smacks of you being disingenuous, but I will accept that your ignorance is genuine. When you suggested it was unreasonable to expect MC station personnel to attempt to locate the “telegram to Washington” about which - the October 1 intercept revealed - “Oswald” inquired in the phone call, I replied: > It is NOT a case of dropping "important work and focus on activating > agents" yadda yadda yadda. This is PART of the work, a natural > portion of the station's function, NOT undertaken by it, but by its >proxies at DFS. Just how much effort would it require to notify DFS >about the existence of the purported cable, and ask for a copy? Was >THAT too hard, Jerry? Too demanding a task? It was pro forma, part of >the job. You responded: "I don't know what the Station's full response to the 9/27 intercepts consisted of. Win Scott may have had plans very similar to what you have suggested. I agree with you that it would be of interest. But, I don't know what he planned or did - or didn't plan or do. Do you?" Jerry, we need not indulge in retroactive telepathic exercises. Again, Win Scott’s own manuscript disclosed: that the “Oswald” affair was far from routine [“…Oswald became a person of great interest to us during this 27 September to 2 October period.”]; that the station’s interest was instant [“…Oswald, having just arrived in Mexico City, made his first contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico…”]; and that appropriate measures WERE taken [“…we at first thought that Lee Harvey Oswald might be a dangerous potential defector from the USA to the Soviet Union… so we kept a special watch on him and his activities.”] Your admiration for Win Scott has been restated here many times. Why are you so reluctant to accept HIS version of events? Is it solely because Scott’s own memoirs are so much at odds with the later reports written by those who WEREN’T there in the pertinent period? If so, you owe Scott greater respect. If not, just why, pray tell, do you disbelieve the man who RAN the station? In either event, what an ODD way to treat one’s heroes. You continued: "But, that would be routine Station business as opposed to actions taken specifically in regard the Oswald case. From that limited point of view, we do know that the calls were not associated with Oswald until after the assassination -- can we at least agree that that was the case?" We can, Jerry, but only by ignoring further statements from other credible MC station personnel. How about this HSCA testimony from translator/transcriber Mr. T., which echoes PRECISELY the protocols Scott himself had previously posited, but which were no doubt unknown to him since he hadn’t read a copy of the manuscript: “We got a request from the station to see if we can pick up the name of this person because sometimes we had a so-called “defector” from the United States that wanted to go to Russia and we had to keep an eye on them. Not I – the Station. Consequently, they were very hot about the whole thing.” Again, this suggests that merely taking note of a name and forwarding a single cable to Langley was substantially LESS than the minimal requirements, and WASN'T what happened at all. Mr. T.’s recollection reflects a fervent contemporaneous interest in Oswald. Why display so avid an interest, only to make NO attempt to locate the “dangerous potential defector” who so concerned Scott himself? The anomaly is self-evident. You also stated: "I'll say this, that some of the actions you've listed would be appropriate if SAY it was a suspected international terrorist that was being talked about, rather than poor gun-waggling Lee Oswald, a wretch just happened to go on to assassinate JFK." To which I replied: >PRECISELY the point, Jerry. MC station had no way of discerning >whether "the American" WAS merely a wretch [gun-waggling or otherwise] >or WAS an international terrorist, perhaps posing as "the American." >ANY effort, even if unsuccessful, to divine which was true would have >demonstrated the integrity of the staff. Leading to your response: "I don't know whether Win Scott considered this or not, and, if so - or if not - what his directions were based on. Do you?" All of the above gives us a pretty good clue, doesn’t it, Jerry? But you seem highly reluctant to accept Scott's manuscript as a true version of what DID happen. When I suggested that SA Hosty knowing Oswald had met with Kostikov was virtually useless without SA Hosty also knowing about Kostikov’s purported role as a Department 13 specialist, you replied: "He knew that Oswald had said that he'd previously been to the Sovemb and had spoken with V.V. Kostikov, yes. As far as the "Department 13 operator" -- I don't know if anybody knows that even to this day. Any information or suspicions about Kostikov before the assassination were limited to his being a probable KGB officer. Agreed?" Yes, but MY GOD, that changed with tremendous speed, didn’t it? Are you not the SLIGHTEST bit interested in how this fact was SO conspicuous by its absence from the documentary record PRIOR to 11/22/63, yet materialized as if by immaculate conception on 11/23/63, at CIA’s own instigation? The sudden emergence of this little nugget put a WHOLE OTHER spin on previously innocuous events, Jerry. While this detail in and of itself does NOT prove CIA conspiracy to murder the President, conspirators could have done NO BETTER than to float this “fact” so soon after the President’s murder. The subsequent emergence of other such details spells out an even more diabolical attempt to tie Oswald to Department 13. Recall, if you will, the November 9 letter from Oswald to the SovEmb in DC, in which Oswald ‘mistakes’ Kostikov for ‘Comrade Kostin.’ Soon after the assassination, CIA likewise magically discerned that ‘Kostin’ was Kostikov’s Department 13 code name. Now, I ask you Jerry, how does a lone nut gunman know more about the code names used by enemy assassination specialists than the Agency itself did? The clear implication, the intended conclusion, is that Oswald was a ‘Kostin’ operative, for this was the ONLY way Oswald would have been privy to such a detail before the Agency was. This was compounded even further by the subsequent disclosure that Department 13 gave its operatives a two year training. In MINSK! Another one of those magically-timed details of which the Agency was wholly ignorant until the revelation could only assume the most incendiary implications. When you pointed out that it was the Bureau which dropped the ball when Oswald was again Stateside, I agreed, and disagreed: > Merely citing the deficiencies of the data's end user [no argument >from ME that SA Hosty should have done more] does not absolve the >parallel deficiencies of those who provided the data. Yet having claimed SA Hosty was something less than vigorous in his pursuit of Oswald, you seem to accept at face value his subsequent self- serving attempts to dodge responsibility: "SA Hosty tells me that in fact he could do no more. He had an open file on Oswald as a potential security risk. He was far more concerned about Marina Oswald as a possible sleeper agent sent by the Soviets. Hosty has patiently explained to me that under the guidelines, he could not even approach Lee Oswald. He could keep tabs on where he lived, where he worked, etc. He could not perform more than passive surveillance unless Oswald did something that was against the law -- such as make a threat against the President's life." Jerry, would that same prohibition have been binding upon SA Hosty’s actions if he KNEW Oswald had consorted with the purported Department 13 Western Hemisphere chief? Again, the timing of the Agency’s knowledge regarding Kostikov’s ostensible “true” role is made suspect by the ginger fashion in which it was handled by CIA, and the timing of its ultimate disclosure. I suggested that you consult with Annie Goodpasture regarding prevailing protocols, which you apparently did:. "Here is Ms Goodpasture's reply: "I would not be inclined to wade into that quagmire. It would not be prudent. The reason is that I believe the necessary facts were in the Warren Commission Report. Subsequent revelations become extraneous additions to the circus of distortion created by the press and media." " Unfortunately, Ms. Goodpasture was sucked into that vortex – the “circus of distortion” – when asked to reconcile the differences between the contents of Win Scott’s manuscript - with which she strongly disagreed, as you know - and the “official version” posited by the Warren Commission which she claims is THE compleat history of the event. I don’t blame her for wishing to say nothing further on this matter – even though she was, I assume, asked only about the protocols in place for dealing with an “Oswald”-type character – because she cannot do so without either further defaming the memory of her old boss, or calling into question the integrity of the Commission Report she defends. Something of a Hobson’s choice, isn’t it? I also suggested: > > > Why not ask her why MC station assets inside the Cuban consulate > > were NOT asked to determine the identity of "the American?" To which you replied: "Do you know for a fact that they were not asked?" Jerry, given the immense pressure placed upon the Agency by SSCIA and HSCA to explain the apparent anomalies prevalent in the MC affair, are you suggesting the Agency would have foregone an opportunity to DEMONSTRATE it had pursued every possible asset in an attempt to locate the “dangerous potential defector?” You also suggested that an attempt to speak with MC station’s own assets inside the Cuban consulate was an onerous task for a station already overburdened with other tasks. I disagreed: >It is the function of station personnel to maintain regular > contact with assets, irrespective of any "special" tasks that may > emerge. No "special meets" were required. What's more, in the course > of such a regular contact, it SHOULD have come to MC station's > attention that a particular Yanqui made quite a stink in the >consulate, for it was the talk of the Cuban personnel, this ignorant, >abusive, demanding Yanqui who expected standard bureaucratic protocols >to be waived for him. For MC station's inside assets, it was a part of >their function - a requirement, in fact - that they pay particular >attention for persons such as "the American," a US national of >undetermined allegiance who claimed a FPCC leadership role. You felt this wasn’t quite so well known after all: "I don't doubt what you say. I do recall Azcue's testimony that when Oswald was there, only he and Mirabel and Duran were present in the Consulate, which was quite small - have you seen the floorplan?" Yes, Jerry. And the fact that the consulate WAS so small made it highly unlikely that the dispute was heard ONLY by the consular staff you referred to above. What’s more, one of Duran’s closer colleagues inside the consulate was Luis Alberu, a man who passed MUCH data on to MC station. Being a regular recipient of such data presupposes regular contact with the supplier of same, a contention made verifiable by the volume of data he provided in the pertinent period, and subsequently, after a lengthy absence when Alberu was posted elsewhere. Of course, CIA has done its level best to preclude us knowing anything about Alberu, by sanitizing all documents of his name. However, surely one who has studied the case as much as you have obviously done has found the tell-tale signs of Alberu’s data in numerous reports. I asked about Phillips' apparent ignorance of this: >You remember FPCC, don't you, Jerry? The group whose neutralization >had been entrusted to MC station's covert eminence gris, DA Phillips? To which you replied: "When was he so "entrusted"? I recall that in Mexico City he had been promoted from Chief of Covert Action to Chief of the Cuban Section. Was he heavily involved with FPCC in Mexico City? I don't think he mentions that in _Nightwatch_." Well, Jerry, given the deliberate gaps and vacuums inside the Agency’s documentary trail, we cannot say with certainty the precise date on which Phillips was thusly entrusted with the task of countering FPCC influence. What we CAN say from the available documents is that this transpired no later than February 1, 1961. Subsequent promotions were in addition to extant taskings, not a substitution for them. And, please, I’ll refrain from demolishing ‘Nightwatch’ as self-serving eyewash, if you’ll likewise refrain from citing it as anything remotely resembling a credible source. Deal? When I stated my hope that we could find ANY sign of interest: >Again, Jerry, I am not asking MC station to have identified "the > American" and determined he was a lunatic planning an assassination. >I ask only what was pro forma for the situation at hand, which was an > ATTEMPT - ANY ATTEMPT - to do so. You wrote: "I don't really know what attempts were contemplated or made - or not comtemplated or made. My POV is strictly that of the Oswald case and I do know that these calls were not associated with *him* until after the assassination. Do you agree?" Jerry, I don’t see how someone professing a perspective “…strictly [limited to] that of the Oswald case” can simultaneously claim to know what standard protocols prevailed in relation to such a situation. How can you conclude the “Oswald” case was not anomalous without knowing ANYTHING about how other such cases were handled? You apparently felt the need to defend MC station's CoS: "Don't you think Win Scott knew how to run a Station? When he jotted on the routing slip - I forget the date - "Possible to identify?" - he was aware of the full range of options and made informed decisions. Do you doubt that?" No, Jerry, you’re making my point for me, thanks. What we’ve been asked to accept to date ISN’T what happened under Scott. On the contrary, I take your point ENTIRELY, and ask you to accept that the portions of the Scott memoir cited above are FAR closer to the truth than you dare acknowledge. If Scott was miffed that the Warren Commission’s Report falsely characterized what was and wasn’t done by MC station, I would be FAR more inclined to side with Scott than the Commission. But that’s not REALLY what you want to hear, is it, Jerry? Regarding the spurious 9/28 phone call, I suggested that if this caller was a bogus "Oswald," then Mr. T.'s identification of the caller as identical to the 10/1 caller made it certain BOTH calls were placed by a bogus "Oswald." Your replied: "And tell me all about it, this "imposture. And don't leave out the part about Boris Tarasoff commenting that the voice on the 10/1 tape was the same voice who'd called on the 28th." To which I replied: > A FINE piece of work, that. It is commendable that Mr. T showed that > degree of initiative, identifying a caller as synonymous with one four > days earlier. Why, then, the failure to identify the woman on 9/28 as > being synonymous with the same voice on 9/27, only one day earlier? You countered: "In fact, he did so identify Sylvia Duran as the caller. I believe there was some delay in doing so. Perhaps you have the details at hand and can share them with me." Sorry, Jerry. While it IS true that SOMEBODY later ID’ed the female caller as Duran, it WASN’T done by Mr. T. Nor have we been told who made the ID, or when; only that it transpired at an undetermined “later.” But then, it couldn't have been TOO much later, for the tapes were soon thereafter routinely recycled, weren't they? > What's more, this opens up a HUGE can of worms for you, doesn't it, > Jerry? If the 9/28 phone call was a demonstrable fraud, then > presumably the same holds true for the 10/1 phone call too, doesn't it? "Yes, I agree. The question is: can you prove that the calls were "demonstrable fraud[s]"?" Yes, Jerry, but not without re-covering old ground at the risk of you “becoming bored with this topic.” The 9/28 intercept disclosed an “Oswald” who didn’t know his address, but had managed to retrieve it from the Cubans. Even if one accepts that Oswald was not a uniquely gifted person, just how stupid must one be to not know one’s own address, to count upon the Cubans to give it to him? How would the Cubans have known his address, if not from Oswald himself? Assuming Mr. T. was correct in his characterization of the caller’s linguistic skills on 9/28, Oswald spoke in horrible, barely decipherable Russian. This was the polar opposite of what the Commission itself was told by all the Russian speaking witnesses who had encountered the ‘real’ Oswald. In contrast to the 9/28 Oswald, the 10/1 Oswald presumably spoke much better Russian, since there was no reference to his “…terrible, hardly recognizable Russian” on that transcript. This discrepancy alone virtually demands the use of a second (or even third) “Oswald.” Of course, a far more tenable and less fanciful rationale is that the two SovEmb callers WEREN'T identical, but that's not something you'll entertain, is it? If one accepts the rendition of events posited by Nechiporenko – a MOST dangerous proposition – Oswald left SovEmb @ 10:15 to 10:30 AM on 11/28, presumably to go retrieve his address from the Cubans, for reasons never specified by anyone. Yet the Cuban consulate was right around the corner, and Oswald’s purported call from there didn’t transpire until 11:51 AM. Did it take Oswald 90 minutes to complete a five-minute walk? Did it take him 90 minutes to bang on the door until somebody opened it? And just who inside the consulate allowed him entry, if not Duran, Azcue or Mirabal, all of whom denied doing so? The consulate was closed on Saturdays, a point on which all consular staff agreed. According to Nechiporenko’s account, Oswald was repeatedly informed of the bureaucratic reasons for his not being granted an expedited visa. He didn’t even fill out an application. So what was the necessity for retrieving an address, from the Cubans or anyone else? Even if he DID provide an address, he would still face a 3-4 month wait for approval, so what was the rush in providing the address on that day? There is only ONE thing supporting the notion that this 9/28 caller was genuine, and that is Mr. T.’s contention the voice was the same one later captured on the 10/1 intercept, a contention made impossible to verify by the alleged destruction of the tape. One cannot compare the timbre or verbal tics of two transcripts. Compare and contrast that ONE tenuous strand of evidence with the self- contradictory nature of the call itself, the caller’s apparent lack of fluency in Russian, the pointlessness of providing the Soviets with an address in support of an application that was never signed nor submitted. Does your common sense REALLY tell you that Oswald made this call? [I won’t even pick the scab of whether or not Dallas FBI, Coleman and Slawson heard a tape.] What’s more, it’s quite apparent that Mr. and Mrs. T. had divergent views about another related point, the existence of a “missing” transcript, which Mrs. T. described as lengthy. In this intercept, Oswald provided his name and alluded in some fashion to wanting financial assistance from the Soviets. She said she had transcribed the intercept herself, a fact made simple by an anomalous fact: Oswald spoke entirely in English. On this point, the contrary recollection of Mr. T. has been used to impeach the version told by his wife. Yet Mrs. T.’s testimony could instead be used with equal facility to impeach her husband’s version. If she had transcribed this “lengthy” intercept herself, how could Mr. T. be so certain, so long after the fact, that a document HE hadn’t generated never existed? Mrs. T’s version received confirmation from an unimpeachable source (in your view), Jerry; no less than David Atlee Phillips. As you well know, Jerry, just prior to his own HSCA testimony Phillips told journalist Ron Kessler that Oswald told the Soviets: “I have information you would be interested in, and I know you can pay my way.” Since no extant intercept shows Oswald alluding to any financial topic, let alone cutting a deal for indeterminate “information,” Mrs. T. and Phillips were presumably referring to the same phone call, the same intercept, which is, technically, “missing.” The “lengthy” transcript may have received partial confirmation from Win Scott as well, for his manuscript revealed what must have been a relatively long conversation, in order for Oswald to have imparted all the details which Scott attributed to him. Among other topics, Oswald reputedly “…further told this Soviet that he should know that Oswald, his wife and child wanted to go to the Crimea….” There is no extant intercept including anything like that. Scott’s manuscript provides additional cause for concern. Oswald “…was observed on all his visits to each of the two communist embassies; and his conversations with personnel of these embassies were studied in detail, so far as we knew them.” Studied in detail? Such phraseology suggests there was more being studied than the extant intercepts (even granting the 9/28 intercept is genuine), for they offer precious little TO be "studied in detail." Again, we have the suggestion of something outside the known record. A more likely subject for being “studied in detail” would be the tapes themselves. But how many "embassy visits" did MC station observe? In describing the SovEmb visitations, Scott used the plural [“…contacted the Soviet Embassy on at least four occasions…”] Strangely, Scott specifically used the singular in reference to the Cuban consulate [“…and ONCE went directly from the office of Sra. Sylvia Tirado de Duran…to his friends, the Soviets.”] Surely if the 9/28 intercept, the prelude to a second visit to SovEmb that same day, had legitimately transpired, Scott’s language would have said “…and TWICE went directly…..” [CAPS are my emphasis.] Clearly, Scott himself discounted ONE of the two calls announcing Oswald’s pending arrival at SovEmb. Faced with a similar choice, which intercept would YOU discount, Jerry? Scott depicted a circumstance in which MC station was instantly aware of Oswald’s first telephone overture to SovEmb, which transpired BEFORE he visited the Cuban consulate; acknowledged the possible importance of Oswald by keeping “a special watch on him;” his conversations were “studied in detail;” and “Soon after his arrival and first talk with the Soviets, we received a brief sketch on Lee Harvey Oswald from headquarters, in answer to our request for information on him.” Jerry, THIS is the way Scott ran his station. MC station KNEW about Oswald’s presence while he was there; KNEW about his contacts with the Cubans, which was thereafter denied; KNEW that Oswald's contacts involved requests for at least one travel visa; DID contemporaneously contact Langley for background materials, and DID receive precisely that, contemporaneously. Scott himself wrote, and I think we should heed it: “These visits and conversations are not hearsay; for persons watching these embassies photographed Oswald as he entered and left each one; and clocked the time he spent on each visit. The conversations are also known to have taken place....." Scott's certainty can only be discounted by impeaching Scott himself, which I'm NOT prepared to do, your own misinference of my point of view notwithstanding. I take Scott at his word, for this is PRECISELY the kind of mettle that EARNED Scott his retirement medal. What’s more, there’s no reason to believe that this was the first or last time somebody kept “a special watch on him and his activities:” NYT – 11/25/63, page 8 – headed OSWALD MADE A VISIT IN SEPTEMBER TO MEXICO, the article includes: “William M. Kline, assistant United States Customs agent in charge of the bureau’s investigative service here [Laredo, Tx], said Oswald crossed the border Sept. 26 bound for Mexico City and returned Oct. 3... He said Oswald’s movements were watched at the request of “a Federal agency in Washington,” but declined to give any further details. “I’m not at liberty to say,” he said.” NYT – 11/26/63, page 14 – headed OSWALD VISITED MEXICO SEEKING VISAS, the article includes: “A Mexican government source said today that Lee H. Oswald, the slain suspect in the assassination of President Kennedy, was in Mexico from Sept. 26 until Oct. 3 attempting without success to get visas to Cuba and the Soviet Union. There were reports here also that his movements were followed in Mexico by an unidentified United States agency. The United States Embassy here declined to confirm or deny any knowledge of the visit... Apparently Mexico secret police had observed the American from time to time, but the Government official said it had not been determined where he lived during his stay in Mexico City. It has been established , he said, that he did not meet with any of the known established leftist groups here...” All of the contemporaneous evidence suggests that MC station's handling of the "Oswald" affair was substantially more than routine. All of the subsequent rationales offered for a contrary "routine" handling were offered because it was the minimal requirement for explaining the "routine" destruction of the tapes, the otherwise inexplicable lack of activity displayed in the surviving paper record, and CIA's failure to stress the possible importance of the "dangerous potential defector" Oswald to other agencies. In closing, some highly perceptive words from Win Scott, albeit offered in a radically different context: “A great deal was written by people who knew a smattering and tried to divine, from what little they knew, a story in which they hoped that what they said would eventually be taken as fact.” Precisely, Jerry. Precisely. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.