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The Indictment that brought Clay L. Shaw to trial:
THE INDICTMENT.
"The Grand Jurors of the State of Louisiana, duly impaneled and sworn in and for the body of the Parish of Orleans, in the name and by the authority of the said State, upon their oath, PRESENT That one CLAY L. SHAW, late of the Parish of Orleans, between the 1st day of September and the 10th day of October, in the year of our Lord, One Thousand, Nine Hundred Sixty-Three, with force and arms in the Parish of Orleans aforesaid, and within the jurisdiction of the Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans did willfully and unlawfully conspire with DAVID W. FERRIE, herein named but not charged and LEE HARVEY OSWALD, herein named but not charged and others, not herein named, to murder JOHN F. KENNEDY, contrary to the form of Statute of the State of Louisiana in such cases made and provided and against the peace and dignity of the same."
Signed ALVIN V. OSER, Assistant District Attorney of the Parish of Orleans.
No. 198-059 (M-703) Section 'C'
STATE OF LOUISIANA versus CLAY L. SHAW
INDICTMENT FOR VIO R.S. 14:26 (30)
TRUE BILL /s/ ALVERT V. LaBICHE, Foreman of Grand Jury
New Orleans, March 22, 1967
Returned in Open Court and recorded and filed March 22, 1967
/s/ GEORGE W. PLATT, Minute Clerk
Clay L. Shaw was a respected New Orleans businessman. It was also later learned that he was a contract agent for the CIA.
Shaw passed away in 1974. He is the only individual ever prosecuted in respect to the assassination of President Kennedy. When New Orleans District Attorney Earling Carothers "Jim" Garrison heard that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested for the assassination of President Kennedy, Garrison remembered that a Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested only three months earlier in New Orleans while Oswald was passing out pro-Fidel Castro literature on a local street corner.
"Somewhere in the vortex that was the Clay Shaw trial," writes Walt Brown and Jan Stevens, "the American people began to see conspiracy emerging in the death of John F. Kennedy ...
"The case was weakened by several of the witnesses Garrison was able to produce, many of whom had credibility factors weighing against them, as well as by the death of [David] Ferrie, who knew too much to ever sit in a witness box.
"The case was also damaged by the volume of interested government officials, some of whom may have had agendas other than seeing justice done. Garrison was denied extraditions and/or subpoenas of witness like Allen Dulles, Richard Case Nagell and others whose testimony could have had an important impact on the outcome.
"The testimony of police officer Aloysius Habighorst - who had booked Shaw and noted Shaw’s admission of the "Bertrand" alias - was not allowed in court. We now know that Garrison’s office was infiltrated by those outside of his employ. Files were stolen, phones probably tapped, key records surreptitiously given to the defense team. Ultimately, the process wore down all the participants, and Shaw was acquitted. Some jurors felt that though there was seemingly a conspiracy in the assassination, Shaw’s involvement in it was not proven to their satisfaction.
"Had Garrison had some of the subsequent information of Shaw’s involvement in the Permindex Corporation or any of the recently released documentation of his association with covert activities of the CIA, the verdict may have been otherwise..."
Jim Garrison questioned the government's intelligence operations in open court. Against all odds, he was questioning officials and battling a hostile press. Walt Brown and Jan Stevens: "For all his contemporaneous pronouncements and mistakes, [Garrison] was the only man who ever took on the conspiracy in the courtroom. He started a process that brought forth some new information we now know to be true, and leads that are still being looked into by JFK researchers."
As you read through this portion of testimony you will feel the argumentative, quarrelsome atmosphere of that Lousiana court room. This isn't a script for today's Law and Order television series: You will read a soft-spoken, mild-mannered Abraham Zapruder facing an inoperative witness microphone; attorneys throwing out more objections than Robert Shapiro, and an overall hostile environment.
Here is the entire session of Abraham Zapruder's testimony, which was interrupted by the testimony of Robert West. The entire day's session is presented un-cut.
1 AFTERNOON SESSION
1 THE COURT:
2 Is the State and the Defense ready?
3 MR. ALCOCK:
4 We are ready, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT:
6 You may proceed.
10 ...oOo...
11 ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER,
12 after first being duly sworn, was examined and
13 testified on his oath as follows:
14 THE COURT:
15 The spelling of the witness’ name is
16 Abraham Zapruder, Z-A-P-R-U-D-E-R,
17 is that correct?
18 THE WITNESS:
19 Z-A-P-R-U-D-E-R, correct.
20 THE COURT:
21 Very well, you may proceed.
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. OSER:
24 Q State your name for the record please?
25 A Abraham Zapruder.
Page 3
1 Q Where do you live, Mr. Zapruder?
2 A 3909 Marquette, Dallas, Texas.
3 Q Mr. Zapruder, what is your occupation?
4 A I manufacture ladies’ dresses.
5 THE COURT:
6 I can’t hear you.
7 THE WITNESS:
8 I manufacture ladies’ dresses.
9 MR. OSER:
10 I don’t believe it is coming over that
11 mike at all.
12 THE COURT:
13 I think the engineer is here. See if
14 someone can fix this microphone.
15 Say, “one, two, three, four,” and
16 see if the man in the back row can
17 hear you.
18 THE WITNESS:
19 One, two, three, four.
20 THE COURT:
21 Can you speak a little louder?
22 THE WITNESS:
23 Yes, I can.
24 THE COURT:
25 Try one more time. Let’s go.
Page 4
1 BY MR. OSER:
2 Q Mr. Zapruder, during November, 1963, what was
3 your occupation?
4 A I can hardly hear you now.
5 Q During November of 1963, what was your
6 occupation?
7 A The same.
8 Q Where is your business located in Dallas?
9 A 501 Elm Street.
10 Q Does the business location have a name to the
11 building?
12 A Yes, it is the Daltex Building.
13 Q I direct your attention to the date of
14 November 22, 1963, and ask you where you
15 were at approximately 12:15 p.m. on that
16 date?
17 A 12:15 p.m. I was looking for a place where
18 to stand so I would be able to take
19 pictures of the arrival of the President.
20 Q Was anybody with you at this time?
21 A Yes, one of my secretaries.
22 Q Did you find such a location?
23 A After three attempts, yes.
24 Q What location did you decide upon?
25 A There was a concrete abutment about 4 feet
Page 5
1 tall and that’s where I decided to stay.
2 MR. OSER:
3 What is the next exhibit number?
3 THE MINUTE CLERK:
4 Thirty-three.
5 BY MR. OSER:
6 Q Mr. Zapruder, I show you what the State has
8 marked for the purpose of identification
9 as S-33, and ask you if you have ever
10 seen this exhibit before?
11 A You mean this picture?
12 Q Yes, sir.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you recognize what is depicted in that
15 photograph, sir?
16 A Are you referring to my --
17 THE COURT:
18 You are not going to have a private
19 conversation. Everything is
20 supposed to go into the record, so
21 speak into the microphone loud and
22 clear.
23 THE WITNESS:
24 What is the question?
25 BY MR. OSER:
Page 6
1 Q Do you recognize anything depicted in that
2 photograph, sir?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What do you recognize?
5 A I recognize myself standing there with my
6 secretary on the aforementioned 4 foot
7 concrete abutment.
8 Q Would you circle for me the location with this
9 pen on the photograph where you say you
10 are depicted?
11 A Okay.
12 Q Mr. Zapruder, while you were standing on this
13 concrete abutment did you do anything in
14 particular in regard to what you were
15 waiting to see and hear?
16 A Did I do anything?
17 Q Yes, sir, did you have anything with you and
18 did you do anything?
19 A I had a camera with me.
20 Q What type of camera did you have?
21 A A Bell & Howell motion picture camera,
22 8 millimeter, with a zoom lens.
23 Q Can you tell us what was the color?
24 A It was loaded with color film.
25 Q What was the color of the camera itself?
Page 7
1 A I believe it was black.
2 Q Do you know what type of lens you had in this
3 camera?
4 A I’m not sure, but I believe it was 2.8.
5 Q Which I believe you said is commonly known as
6 a zoom lens?
7 A Yes.
8 MR. DYMOND:
9 I object, he is leading the witness.
10 THE COURT:
11 Don’t lead the witness.
12 MR. OSER:
13 He already testified to that.
14 THE COURT:
15 You can’t lead him even though he has
16 said it.
17 MR. OSER:
18 At this time the State wishes to use one
19 of its other exhibits.
20 MR. DYMOND:
21 We object to it being submitted to the
22 Jury until it is submitted in
23 evidence.
24 THE COURT:
25 Take the Jury into their room.
Page 8
1 (WHEREUPON, the Jury retired to
2 the Jury Room.)
3 THE COURT:
4 Now, Mr. Oser, the photograph which you
5 have numbered S-33 for identifica-
6 tion purposes, I understand you are
7 going to make an offer of that
8 photograph to be received in
9 evidence, and if it is received
10 then you wish to present an
11 enlargement, is that correct?
12 MR. OSER:
13 No, Your Honor, other exhibits.
14 THE COURT:
15 A separate exhibit?
16 MR. OSER:
17 Yes, Your Honor, separate from Exhibit
18 S-33 for identification.
19 THE COURT:
20 You may show us the exhibit and we will
21 see what it is.
22 MR. DYMOND:
23 If the Court please, at this time we
24 object to all this testimony
25 concerning Dealey Plaza on the
Page 9
1 ground of relevancy. Your Honor has
2 ruled many, many times that there is
3 no connection between the happenings
4 at Dealey Plaza and this case. The
5 only overt act alleged by the State
6 in connection with happenings at
7 Dallas at that time was the alleged
8 taking by Lee Harvey Oswald of the
9 gun from his home to the School Book
10 Depository. I refer Your Honor to
11 RS15:441, which gives a codal
12 definition of relevant evidence and
13 reads as follows:
14 “Relevant evidence is that
15 tending to show the commission of
16 the offense and the intent or
17 tending to negative the commission
18 of the offense and the intent. The
19 facts necessary to be known to
20 explain a relevant fact or which
21 support and inference raised by
22 such a fact are admissible.”
23 It is our contention that none
24 of this evidence comes within that
25 codal definition of relevant
Page 10
1 evidence. It is on that basis that
2 we object.
3 MR. ALCOCK:
4 I think, Your Honor, we have argued this
5 at length on prior occasions, but I
6 think the words Mr. Dymond noted
7 towards the end of his argument are
8 important, that is, “The facts
9 necessary to be known to explain a
10 relevant fact or which support an
11 inference raised by such a fact are
12 admissible.”
13 We have in the record of this
14 case an alleged discussion
15 participated in by the Defendant,
16 Lee Oswald and David Ferrie relative
17 to the assassination of the President
18 of the United States. We have a
19 discussion of triangulation of
20 crossfire, the use of rifles in the
21 assassination attempt, or in the
22 discussion itself, and certainly
23 this evidence the State submits,
24 will be connected up. The State
25 also suggests it is highly
Page 11
1 corroborative of this conspiratorial
2 meeting and for this reason the
3 State submits it is relevant to the
4 facts already stated in evidence --
5 MR. DYMOND:
6 Your Honor, all the things Mr. Alcock
7 outlined were alleged and have been
8 before the Court for approximately
9 two years, and were the basis for
10 all Your Honor’s rulings up till
11 now, that there was no connection
12 between what happened, so the State
13 argued, and now we have here a
14 complete reversal of the position.
15 MR. ALCOCK:
16 The State has never reversed its
17 position. The State’s position was
18 that it could, if it wanted to,
19 overprove its case. The State
20 admits, and this Court has acknow-
21 ledged on numerous occasions, the
22 State does not have to prove, as a
23 matter of law, the President was
24 killed as a result of this alleged
25 conspiratorial meeting. However,
Page 12
1 the State may call evidence which
2 tends to confirm or corroborate that
3 it was discussed. It would then be
4 the duty of the Jury to decide
5 whether or not to give any weight to
6 the evidence adduced regarding the
7 events in Dallas, Texas, relative
8 to the actual assassination area.
9 They can consider the President was
10 shot on that occasion, and if the
11 State can prove he was shot from
12 more than one direction the State has
13 in effect proven a conspiracy, or
14 more than one person shooting at
15 him, and these are things the Jury
16 can infer from this evidence and
17 they are simply and purely corrobor-
18 ative of the testimony of
19 Perry Russo, and in addition to that
20 the testimony of Mr. Spiesel, who
21 also mentioned the fact of shooting
22 the President with rifles.
23 MR. DYMOND:
24 Your Honor, nothing Mr. Alcock says
25 presents anything that has not been
Page 13
1 before this Court and used as a
2 basis for Your Honor’s previous
3 rulings. It is Your Honor’s job to
4 decide what is relevant and what is
5 not relevant.
6 THE COURT:
7 I’m aware of that.
8 MR. DYMOND:
9 It is not up to the Jury.
10 THE COURT:
11 You have made your arguments to me and
12 I understand both arguments advanced.
13 The evidence must be relevant to a
14 material issue.
15 I am going to read again
16 Article 441, which you read, and
17 also read a little further.
18 “Relevant evidence is that
19 tending to show . . . .”
20 (REPORTER’S NOTE: The quoted passage was
21 not handed to the Reporter; the reader
22 is referred to the source.)
23 There is no question about it,
24 that the State can overprove its
25 case if it so desires, and I feel
Page 14
1 the evidence that is now being
2 offered as to what occurred in
3 Dallas is relevant evidence and I
4 will admit it and therefore I will
5 overrule your objection.
6 MR. DYMOND:
7 To which ruling Counsel objects and
8 reserves a bill of exception, making
9 the entire testimony of this witness,
10 the Defense’s objection and the
11 Court’s ruling and the record up to
12 this time part of the bill.
13 THE COURT:
14 Let us see this exhibit. What is that
15 and who is that and who are you
16 going to use to identify it?
17 MR. OSER:
18 Mr. Zapruder and Mr. Robert West, who is
19 the County Surveyor for Dallas,
20 Texas and has been since 1944.
21 THE COURT:
22 The County Surveyor would be the person
23 who could say whether or not this
24 is a true representation of that
25 area on that date. What date was
Page 15
1 is taken?
2 MR. OSER:
3 I don’t know the date it was taken,
4 Your Honor, but this represents
5 Dealey Plaza on November 22.
6 THE COURT:
7 The materiality depends upon it portraying
8 the conditions that existed at 12:15
9 on November 22, 1963. If it does
10 then it is relevant, if it does not,
11 it is not.
12 MR. OSER:
13 Mr. West can identify it as to the
14 topographical arrangements and the
15 buildings and streets and other
16 things being the same in this picture
17 as they were on November 22, 1963.
18 THE COURT:
19 What about the trees, are the trees the
20 same?
21 MR. OSER:
22 I think the gentleman could also testify
23 to that, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT:
25 What is your next one? Let us give them
Page 16
1 a number. That one will be --
2 MR. OSER:
3 This is S-34.
4 THE COURT:
5 The other one will be what?
6 MR. OSER:
7 S-35, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT:
9 Tell us what that is supposed to be.
10 MR. OSER:
11 It is the survey plat made by
12 Mr. Robert West, drawn by him for
13 the FBI, for the Federal Government
14 on May 31, 1964.
15 THE COURT:
16 What year?
17 MR. OSER:
18 May 31, 1964 it is certified to, and I
19 think Mr. West will testify in his
20 opinion it actually represents what
21 the land and topographical area was
22 on November 22, 1963.
23 THE COURT:
24 What is your next exhibit?
25 MR. OSER:
Page 17
1 A scale model, which the State marks as
2 S-36 for the purpose of identifica-
3 tion, purporting to be representative
4 of the area known as Dealey Plaza.
5 MR. DYMOND:
6 I thought we were told that was not a
7 scale model.
8 MR. OSER:
9 You are right, not a scale model, a
10 markup. The State is not alleging
11 it is to scale.
12 THE COURT:
13 Who prepared it?
14 MR. OSER:
15 It was prepared by CBS.
16 THE COURT:
17 Who is going to identify it as being a
18 true picture of the scene on
19 November 22, 1963?
20 MR. OSER:
21 Mr. West can identify it, and
22 Mr. Zapruder can testify this
23 represents the streets and the
24 buildings and area known as Dealey
25 Plaza.
Page 18
1 MR. DYMOND:
2 Unless it is to scale we are going to
3 object because it can very easily
4 present a distorted picture.
5 THE COURT:
6 They don’t offer it as a scale model.
7 They offer it to portray the scene
8 but not a scale model.
9 How are you going to have
10 Mr. Zapruder testify as to Exhibits
11 34, 35 and 36, unless you get them
12 in evidence?
13 MR. OSER:
14 I would ask then that we call Mr. West
15 at this time.
16 THE COURT:
17 That’s what I would suggest. You may
18 step down, Mr. Zapruder.
19 MR. DYMOND:
20 We object to these exhibits being seen
21 by the Jury until they are received.
22 (WITNESS EXCUSED.)
23 THE COURT:
24 I would suggest we call Mr. West and put
25 him under oath out of the presence
Page 19
1 of the Jury and go through his
2 testimony. If you have no objection
3 you can do it all over again in the
4 presence of the Jury.
5 ...oOo...
6 ROBERT WEST,
7 after first being duly sworn, was examined and
8 testified on his oath as follows:
9 THE COURT:
10 Would you be kind enough to spell your
11 name?
12 THE WITNESS:
13 Robert H. West, W-E-S-T.
14 THE COURT:
15 You may proceed.
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
18 Q What is your occupation, sir?
19 A I am a land surveyor, the County Surveyor for
20 Dallas County.
21 Q Would you briefly tell the Court the nature
22 of your duties as surveyor for Dallas
23 County, Dallas, Texas?
24 A Basically keeping the survey records, the
25 land survey records of the County, making
Page 20
1 them available to the public and so
2 forth.
3 Q Do your duties include any on-the-scene survey
4 work?
5 A In my official capacity as County Surveyor
6 very, very rarely. The County Surveyor’s
7 Office is mainly in the surveying of
8 public bond domain, of which there is
9 very little left in Dallas County.
10 Q Relative to other aspects of your occupation,
11 do you do on-the-scene survey work?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 MR. SCIAMBRA:
14 At this time the State would attempt to
15 qualify this witness as an expert
16 surveyor and therefore qualified to
17 give his expert opinion relative to
18 the topographical aspects of Dealey
19 Plaza in Dallas, Texas.
20 THE COURT:
21 Does the Defense wish to traverse
22 Mr. West on the proposition of his
23 being an expert?
24 MR. DYMOND:
25 Just a few questions.
Page 21
1 BY MR. DYMOND:
2 Q Mr. West, what is --
3 MR. SCIAMBRA:
4 I haven’t questioned him yet. I haven’t
5 brought out his qualifications yet.
6 THE COURT:
7 You may proceed to do so.
8 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
9 Q How long have you been County Surveyor for
10 the County of Dallas, Texas?
11 A Since 1944.
12 Q What training have you had, whether in some
13 institution or whether in an apprentice
14 type of situation?
15 A The basic training was with my father who was
16 County Surveyor from 1904 until 1944, at
17 which time I assisted him. I also,
18 during that period, attended A&M
19 College and Southern Methodist University
20 taking civil engineering.
21 Q At what age did you begin to receive your
22 training under the tutorship of your
23 father?
24 A When I was 12, 13 years old he started taking
25 me to the field to help him make these
Page 22
1 land surveys.
2 Q Have you ever been qualified as an expert
3 surveyor in any courts?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Approximately how many courts have you been
6 qualified as an expert in?
7 A All the courts in Dallas County. The County
8 Courts, the District Courts and the
9 Federal Courts.
10 THE COURT:
11 Mr. Alcock, I would suggest you tender
12 Mr. West for traverse by the
13 Defense.
14 MR. ALCOCK:
15 The State will tender him.
16 BY MR. DYMOND:
17 Q Mr. West, is there such a thing as a
18 topographical surveyor?
19 A One who does nothing but topographical work?
20 Q Topographical work, yes.
21 A There are, but I don’t know of any personally.
22 Q Do all surveyors do topographical work?
23 A All the land surveyors should be able to do
24 topographical work.
25 Q Do you do topographical work, sir?
Page 23
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Did you graduate in civil engineering?
3 A No, sir.
4 MR. DYMOND:
5 That is all, sir.
6 THE COURT:
7 Mr. Dymond, does the Defense wish to put
8 any witness on the traverse as to the
9 expertise of the witness Mr. West
10 being an expert in this field?
11 MR. DYMOND:
12 No, we don’t wish to do that.
13 THE COURT:
14 Is the matter submitted?
15 MR. SCIAMBRA:
16 It is submitted by the State.
17 THE COURT:
18 I will rule that Mr. West by training,
19 experience and study is an expert
20 in this field and can give his
21 opinion as to the landmarks in
22 Dallas County, Dallas, Texas on
23 November 22, 1963.
24 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
25 Q Did you have occasion during the course of
Page 24
1 your duties to survey and draw a survey
2 plat for the Federal Bureau of
3 Investigation relative to Dealey Plaza?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Do you see that survey or reproduction of it
6 in court today?
7 A I think it is on the easel over there on the
8 left.
9 Q Is this survey drawn to scale, and if so, what
10 scale?
11 A Yes, sir. The scale is noted on the plat.
12 The large portion of the map is drawn to
13 the scale of one inch equal to twenty
14 feet. The other portion, which has to do
15 with vertical control --
16 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. West: Is this a
17 complete survey of Dealey Plaza?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q In what respects is it incomplete?
20 A It is not complete, it does not show all of
21 the topographical features within this
22 particular quadrant of Dealey Plaza.
23 Q Is there any particular reason why it does
24 not show this?
25 A This is what was required by an FBI agent.
Page 25
1 This is what he instructed me to survey
2 and to plat.
3 Q Particularly relative to the location of the
4 street and what is referred to as a
5 wooden stockade, and the location of the
6 other landmarks which are on this plat,
7 are they in the same location as they
8 were in on November 23, 1963?
9 A I cannot testify to the location of the sign
10 as being in the exact position.
11 Q Are these signs clearly marked on the plat?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Relative to the other aspects of this plat,
14 can you testify to them?
15 A All of the aspects on the plat to the best of
16 my knowledge are the same.
17 Q As they were on the 22nd of November?
18 A Right.
19 Q When was this plat made, if you know?
20 A I can’t see the date. It is on the map there.
21 Q Is there a date on the plat?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Would you please step down and walk over to
24 the plat?
25 A April 31, 1964.
Page 26
1 Q Is your name on the plat?
2 A My name is printed on the map and also my
3 signature is on the map.
4 Q Are there any seals on the plat?
5 A There is a seal of the Public Surveyor’s
6 Office.
7 Q Was this seal placed on the plat by you?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Mr. West, I direct your attention to what the
10 State has previously marked as S-34, which
11 purports to be an aerial photograph, and
12 I ask you whether or not you can tell
13 the Court of what this is a photograph?
14 If you cannot see it plainly you can step
15 over here.
16 A I believe I can see it. It is a photograph of
17 part of Dealey Plaza at the intersection
18 of Houston, Elm, Main and Commerce in
19 Dallas.
20 Q I request you get up from your witness chair
21 and inspect this photograph very carefully,
22 please. Would you come over here and
23 inspect it?
24 A All right.
25 Q You may return to your seat. Mr. West, you
Page 27
1 have inspected what purports to be an
2 aerial photograph of Dealey Plaza, is
3 that correct, sir?
4 A Yes.
5 Q To the best of your knowledge are the
6 buildings, streets and various landmarks,
7 including the trees that are depicted in
8 this photograph, in the same location and
9 position as they were in on November 22,
10 1963?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Are the objects which are depicted in this
13 map, in this photograph, in the same
14 location as the objects which are
15 depicted in your plat, as far as it
16 goes?
17 A The same relative location of streets,
18 buildings and so forth.
19 Q Mr. West, I would ask you to please step down
20 and inspect what has been previously
21 marked as S-36.
22 A All right.
23 Q Please return to your seat. Mr. West, you
24 have inspected what has been marked as
25 S-36, is that correct, sir?
Page 28
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Do you recognize this as being any particular
3 location?
4 A Well, it is basically the same area as covered
5 in the photograph. Commerce, Main, Elm
6 and Houston Streets, showing the court-
7 house and the jail and so forth.
8 Q As a result of your inspection were you able to
9 determine any errors which might be
10 represented here as opposed to the actual
11 scene in Dallas, Texas?
12 A That covers such a multitude of things I don’t
13 know that I could answer that question.
14 Q Are there any major errors?
15 A I don’t see any major errors.
16 Q Are there any buildings on here which are not
17 in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas?
18 A No.
19 Q Are there any streets on here which are not
20 in Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Where is your office located in Dallas,
23 Mr. West?
24 A At the date of this survey it was located on
25 the first floor of the northwest corner
Page 29
1 of the old courthouse at the corner of
2 Main and Houston.
3 Q Is the old courthouse depicted in this aerial
4 photograph?
5 A Yes, sir, it is in the lower right-hand corner.
6 Q Were you present in Dealey Plaza at approxi-
7 mately noon on November 22, 1963?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Therefore in your expert opinion the two
10 exhibits, S-30 and S-36, do they fairly
11 represent the area as it was on that date,
12 is that right?
13 A Right.
14 Q More specifically, the markup which the State
15 does allege is not to scale, and you have
16 noticed there are some minor mistakes, is
17 that right?
18 A Right.
19 Q But there are no buildings, streets or major
20 obstacles which are located out of
21 position, is that right?
22 A Right.
23 THE COURT:
24 Mr. Dymond, Mr. Wegmann and Mr. Wegmann,
25 do you wish to traverse on these
Page 30
1 exhibits?
2 MR. DYMOND:
3 Yes, I do.
4 THE COURT:
5 You may do it.
6 BY MR. DYMOND:
7 Q Mr. West, I have particular reference to what
8 has been termed a markup, that is this
9 model here before me. You stated on
10 Direct Examination there are some minor
11 mistakes on it. Would you mind coming
12 down here and point them out to us,
13 these minor mistakes?
14 A Basically what I intended to say was that the
15 markup covers such a large area that it
16 would be impossible for me to check out
17 every minute detail as to scale, location
18 of trees, location of traffic strips,
19 et cetera, that are on this model. I
20 couldn’t say whether they are in the
21 correct position or not.
22 Q Mr. West, the markup doesn’t purport to be a
23 scale markup, so errors as to scale would
24 not be relevant here. Can you point out
25 other errors, other than scale errors.
Page 31
1 that might exist?
2 A I would have to examine it again to pick out
3 any big errors such as that.
4 Q You are free to examine it if you wish to,
5 Mr. West.
6 A Basically the model doesn’t indicate the
7 concrete wall or fence along the west
8 side of the area that leads across
9 Houston Street from the Criminal Court and
10 jail building between the lagoon and Elm
11 Street.
12 THE COURT:
13 The Court Reporter has to get this down,
14 so will you speak louder, please.
15 THE WITNESS:
16 (Continuing) There is a concrete wall
17 that runs along the west side of the
18 lagoon, west of Houston Street.
19 It is terribly difficult here to say
20 what is missing in a model of this
21 type. For example, the storm sewer
22 inlets are not shown on Elm, Main or
23 Commerce.
24 THE COURT:
25 I cannot hear you.
Page 32
1 THE WITNESS:
2 (Continuing) The storm sewers are not
3 shown on Main, Elm or Commerce. The
4 highway sign shown here, I couldn’t
5 say it is in the correct position.
6 Basically that’s about all.
7 BY MR. DYMOND:
8 Q You may return to the stand. Mr. West, would
9 you be able to testify as to whether this
10 markup contains the same number of trees
11 in the same locations and of approximately
12 the same relative size as those that were
13 in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q You could not?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Mr. West, I refer to a building here, and ask
18 you what building this represents?
19 A This is the Criminal Courts Building.
20 Q Where would the Records Building be in relation
21 to this Criminal Courts Building?
22 A Immediately behind it or east of it.
23 Q Back this way?
24 A Right.
25 Q When was the Records Building built?
Page 33
1 A To the best of my knowledge along in the 1920's.
2 Q When was the new Criminal Courts Building built?
3 A The late ‘40's.
4 Q Is it not a fact that facing this markup over
5 in this left area are the railroad tracks,
6 that there is a railroad observation
7 tower with a big plate glass window in the
8 front of it permitting open view into what
9 has been termed the grassy knoll area?
10 A There is a tower and it has, I am sure, a view
11 of the railroad. I have never been up
12 there so I couldn’t say what the view is.
13 THE COURT:
14 Could you find in the aerial photograph
15 that of which you are speaking?
16 MR. DYMOND:
17 In order to enlighten you as to what I
18 am speaking of, Mr. West, I am
19 pointing my finger to the building
20 to which I have reference on
21 State-34.
22 THE COURT:
23 Why don’t you step down, sir. I have a
24 magnifying glass here if you want
25 it.
Page 34
1 MR. DYMOND:
2 I don’t believe so, Your Honor.
3 THE WITNESS:
4 Yes, I can see it.
5 BY MR. DYMOND:
6 Q Such a building does exist and did exist on
7 November 22, 1963?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Is that building represented on this markup at
10 all?
11 A I don’t believe so.
12 Q Now, with respect to the large exhibit over
13 here, Mr. West, which has been marked for
14 identification as State-35, is such a
15 building represented on this survey?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Is there anything on this survey which would
18 indicate the number and the size and the
19 location of trees in this area?
20 A There are several trees shown. The size, no.
21 You mean the diameter of the trunk of
22 the tree?
23 Q And the height of the trunk of the tree.
24 A We didn’t attempt to show the diameter or
25 height of any trees.
Page 35
1 Q Would you call this, sir, a topographical
2 survey or not?
3 A Within its limits.
4 Q Within what limits?
5 A Within the limits that were indicated to me by
6 the FBI, that this was the information
7 that they wanted to be shown on this map.
8 Within those limits it is a topographical
9 map.
10 Q Do those limits coincide with your definition
11 of a topographical survey?
12 A Within those limits, yes, sir.
13 Q I am talking about your general definition and
14 knowledge of the term ‘topographical
15 survey’.
16 A For example, the information shown at Houston
17 Street beginning at Main and running
18 northerly along Elm Street and beginning
19 at Houston and running westerly to the
20 triple underpass, that in my opinion is a
21 true topographical map showing all the
22 physical features of those particular
23 streets.
24 Q Do you know when the photograph was taken,
25 Mr. West?
Page 36
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Do you know whether or not that photograph
3 reflects the same number of trees in the
4 same location and the same height as
5 existed in that location on November 22,
6 1963?
7 A No, sir.
8 MR. DYMOND:
9 That’s all, sir.
10 THE COURT:
11 For the record, Mr. Sciambra, can we have
12 the date when this was taken? Does
13 it appear on the reverse thereof
14 when it was taken?
15 MR. SCIAMBRA:
16 No, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT:
18 To the best you know, from your experience
19 living in Dallas, Texas, having helped
20 your father since you were 12 years
21 old and being familiar with the area,
22 as an expert would you say the aerial
23 photograph fairly and accurately
24 represents the scene as it existed
25 on November 22, 1963?
Page 37
1 THE WITNESS:
2 As best as can be shown by a photograph,
3 yes, sir.
4 THE COURT:
5 The answer is “yes”?
6 THE WITNESS:
7 Yes.
8 THE COURT:
9 You prepared a plat of the survey?
10 THE WITNESS:
11 Yes.
12 THE COURT:
13 Let us get to the markup. Does it fairly
14 represent the scene, not to scale
15 but the general appearance,
16 particularly of the streets and the
17 Texas Schoolbook Depository Building;
18 does it fairly show the scene as it
19 existed on November 22, 1963, to the
20 best of your knowledge?
21 THE WITNESS:
22 I think it does.
23 THE COURT:
24 I am going to admit these three exhibits
25 into evidence.
Page 38
1 MR. DYMOND:
2 Will we have an opportunity to object?
3 THE COURT:
4 You will have an opportunity to object.
5 Let us bring the Jury in and leave the
6 exhibits where they are and go
7 through it all over again in
8 front of the Jury.
9 (WHEREUPON, the Jury returned to the
10 courtroom.)
11 THE COURT:
12 You may start from the beginning.
13 ...oOo...
14 ROBERT WEST,
15 having been previously sworn, testified further on
16 his oath as follows:
17 MR. DYMOND:
18 If the Court please, now that the Jury
19 has returned, we would like to
20 object and reserve our bill, to the
21 testimony of Mr. Abraham Zapruder
22 on the grounds of relevancy of the
23 issues in this case, and making his
24 entire testimony, the objection, the
25 ruling of the Court and all other
Page 39
1 testimony up to this time part of
2 the bill.
3 THE COURT:
4 You may proceed.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
7 Q Would you please state your full name?
8 A Robert H. West.
9 Q Where do you reside?
10 A 9209 Pennywool (?) Street, Dallas, Texas.
11 Q What is your occupation?
12 A I’m a land surveyor.
13 Q Do you have any particular title?
14 A I am County Surveyor of Dallas County, Texas.
15 Q How long have you held that office?
16 A Since 1944.
17 Q Would you in a couple of sentences please
18 explain to the Gentlemen of the Jury very
19 briefly the nature of your work as
20 County Surveyor and also the nature of
21 your work as a surveyor?
22 A The nature of my work as a County Surveyor is
23 the maintenance and preservation of
24 original survey records of Dallas County,
25 making them available to the public and
Page 40
so forth. My duties as a land surveyor
2 have to do with the surveying of land,
3 subdivisions, topographical maps, maps of
4 collisions for insurance companies. That
5 about covers it.
6 MR. SCIAMBRA:
7 May it please the Court, at this time the
8 State will attempt to qualify
9 Mr. West as an expert surveyor and
10 further qualified to give his opinion
11 as to the topographical aspects of
12 Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas.
13 MR. DYMOND:
14 We would like to object to the testimony
15 of Mr. West on the ground of
16 relevancy for the same reasons as
17 heretofore stated.
18 THE COURT:
19 The ruling as I ruled with regard to
20 Mr. Zapruder will apply to Mr. West.
21 MR. DYMOND:
22 Same bill.
23 THE COURT:
24 Proceed.
25 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Page 41
1 Q Have you had any particular training in the
2 field of surveying?
3 A I received my basic surveying training from my
4 father who was County Surveyor from 1904
5 until 1944. Other than that I received
6 my schooling at A & M College and Southern
7 Methodist University.
8 Q Have you had any education and experience of
9 civil engineering?
10 A Not much, except what I run into in the
11 practice of land surveying.
12 Q How old were you when you began to receive your
13 training from your father?
14 A Approximately 12 to 14. Well, since I got big
15 enough.
16 Q Was that training continuous until your father
17 left office in 1944?
18 A Except for time out for schooling.
19 Q Mr. West, have you ever been qualified as an
20 expert surveyor in any courts?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Have you ever been qualified in Federal Courts?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Do you know on how many occasions in Federal
25 Courts?
Page 42
1 A I would say approximately a half a dozen times.
2 Q Have you ever been qualified by any District
3 or Municipal Courts?
4 A The County Court and District Courts, yes, sir.
5 Q On approximately how many occasions, if you
6 know?
7 A Thirty to forty.
8 Q How long have you been County Surveyor for
9 Dallas County, Dallas, Texas?
10 A Since 1944.
11 THE COURT:
12 Do you wish to tender the witness for
13 traverse?
14 MR. SCIAMBRA:
15 The State tenders the witness.
16 BY MR. DYMOND:
17 Q Are you a graduate civil engineer, Mr. West?
18 A No, sir.
19 THE COURT:
20 Does the Defense wish to present any
21 evidence by witnesses or otherwise
22 on traverse of the qualifications
23 of Mr. West?
24 MR. DYMOND:
25 We don’t, Your Honor.
Page 43
1 THE COURT:
2 Is the matter submitted?
3 MR. SCIAMBRA:
4 Submitted by the State, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT:
6 Considering the training, experience and
7 education of the witness, the Court
8 rules he is qualified as an expert
9 in this particular field and can give
10 his opinion not only as a land
11 surveyor but also as an official of
12 Dallas County of the physical aspects
13 of Dallas on November 22, 1963. You
14 may proceed.
15 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
16 Q I direct your attention to what has been
17 previously marked for identification as
18 State Exhibit 35, which purports to be a
19 plat, and ask you whether or not you
20 recognize this?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q For what purpose was this plat originally
23 drawn?
24 A This was made at the request of the FBI agent
25 for the Warren Commission.
Page 44
1 Q Did you personally draw this?
2 A It was personally drawn -- Well, it was drawn
3 under my personal supervision.
4 Q Did you personally supervise the surveying of
5 everything that led up to the drawing of
6 this plat?
7 A Yes, sir, I was present at all times during the
8 office work and field work.
9 Q In connection with the drawing of this plat
10 were any photographs taken to aid you?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Mr. West, is this plat a complete representa-
13 tion of Dealey Plaza?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q In what respects is it not complete?
16 A It doesn’t show all of the topographical
17 features of that particular part of
18 Dealey Plaza that lies northwest of Main
19 Street.
20 Q Does it show all of the curves and contours
21 in Dealey Plaza?
22 A Not of the ground, but all the streets, it
23 shows all of the curves and contours.
24 Q Directing your attention specifically to the
25 wooden stockade, does this plan indicate
Page 45
1 the elevation of this stockade?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Are there any reasons why this plat is an
4 incomplete drawing?
5 A This is what the FBI agent instructed me to
6 show on this plat, these features.
7 Q Mr. West, I direct your attention -- no, I will
8 ask you something prior to that. Would you
9 please step down from the witness stand and
10 come over here?
11 A Yes.
12 MR. SCIAMBRA:
13 Your Honor, for the sake of convenience,
14 provided I speak in a loud voice and
15 provided Mr. West speaks in a loud
16 voice, can I ask him questions from
17 here?
18 THE COURT:
19 Yes, but speak up.
20 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
21 Q I notice in the center lane of that which you
22 have depicted as Elm Street there are
23 numerals close to small dots. Can you
24 please tell the Gentlemen of the Jury what
25 those numbers represent and what the dots
Page 46
1 represent?
2 A The number represents the frame number of the
3 Zapruder film. The dot represents the
4 location of President Kennedy in the
5 limousine when the particular frame was
6 shot.
7 MR. DYMOND:
8 We object to that unless this gentlemen
9 can testify to that of his own
10 knowledge, Your Honor. Unless he
11 measured where the President was each
12 time it would be based purely on
13 hearsay.
14 MR. SCIAMBRA:
15 I am asking the question.
16 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
17 Q Why did you place the dot in the frame number
18 in a particular location which is shown
19 on this plat?
20 A On the instructions of the FBI agent.
21 MR. DYMOND:
22 We object to it and ask the Jury be
23 instructed to disregard it.
24 THE COURT:
25 I so instruct the Jury. Disregard the
Page 47
1 last remark.
2 May I ask the witness one
3 question? Does your signature appear
4 on this scale model?
5 THE WITNESS:
6 Yes, sir, over in the lower left-hand
7 corner.
8 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
9 Q Is there also a seal upon this drawing?
10 A Yes, sir, the Registered Public Surveyor’s
11 seal.
12 Q Is this your seal?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Did you place this seal there?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Is this plat drawn to scale, Mr. West?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q What is the scale of this plat?
19 A One inch equal to ten feet on the large portion
20 and the right-hand part of the map
21 horizontal control part, the upper
22 left-hand part of this vertical control,
23 is one inch to twenty feet. They are
24 noted on the plat.
25 Q Mr. West, were you present in Dealey Plaza on
Page 48
1 a date whenever a reconstruction of the
2 assassination of President Kennedy was
3 conducted?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Were any Federal agents present at this time?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Do you know from what bureau or agency these
8 men were?
9 MR. DYMOND:
10 We object on the grounds that this is
11 completely irrelevant. A reconstruc-
12 tion of what supposedly went on has
13 no place in this case.
14 THE COURT:
15 I sustain that objection.
16 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
17 Q I direct your attention to what has been
18 previously marked by the State as S-34,
19 and I ask you whether or not you
20 recognize the scene depicted in this
21 photograph?
22 A Yes, sir. That is a portion of Dealey Plaza
23 at Houston, Main, Elm and Commerce Streets
24 in Dallas.
25 Q In this photograph there is a building which
Page 49
1 is marked “Texas School Book Depository.”
2 Is this in fact the Texas School Book
3 Depository?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q There is also a building marked the Daltex
6 Building. Is this the Daltex Building?
7 A Yes.
8 Q There is also a building marked the Records
9 Building. Is this in fact the Records
10 Building?
11 A I can’t see from here which is marked as the
12 Records Building.
13 Q Well, step down and come over to the photograph.
14 A This part as shown as the Records Building is
15 the back of the Criminal Courts Building,
16 but they are all hooked together with
17 hallways that run from one to the other.
18 Q I direct your attention to what has been
19 previously marked for identification by
20 the State as S-36, which purports to be a
21 markup of Dealey Plaza, and ask you
22 whether or not you recognize this?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 MR. SCIAMBRA:
25 Your Honor, I would make a statement to
Page 50
1 The Court and the jury that at this
2 time this does not purport to be
3 drawn to scale, or built to scale.
4 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
5 Q Have you inspected, or would you please at
6 this time step forward and inspect this
7 markup. Please speak very loudly so
8 everyone can hear you. Is this an accurate
9 model or markup of Dealey Plaza or are
10 there things which are not contained in
11 this markup?
12 A There are things that are not contained in this
13 markup. All of the physical features are
14 not shown.
15 Q Will you please point out those features which
16 are not shown?
17 A One, for example, is the concrete fence which
18 runs along the west side of the lagoon
19 west of Houston Street between Main and
20 Elm.
21 Q Relative to the buildings and the locations of
22 the streets, are they fairly accurately
23 represented by this markup?
24 A I think they are fairly accurate, yes, sir.
25 Q Are there any buildings in Dealey Plaza in the
Page 51
1 area depicted here which are not located
2 in this markup?
3 A Not to my knowledge.
4 Q You may return to the witness chair. Now,
5 Mr. West, were you present in Dealey
6 Plaza on November 22, 1963, sir?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Where were you located? At approximately what
9 time were you in Dealey Plaza?
10 A I don’t remember the exact time of the day.
11 It was approximately 15 minutes before
12 the motorcade came down.
13 Q Mr. West, I’m going to give you a small flag
14 which has your name on it, and which also
15 has a pin in it, and I would ask you to
16 please go to what you previously identi-
17 fied as being your certified plat and
18 stick this in the location where you were
19 approximately 30 minutes before the
20 motorcade passed on November 22, 1963.
21 A (The witness complies.)
22 Q Now, Mr. West, would you please explain to the
23 Gentlemen of the Jury, and the Court,
24 verbally what location this is?
25 A That would be the southeast corner of the
Page 52
1 intersection of Main and Houston Streets.
2 Q In relation to the aerial photograph, and in
3 relation to where your office was at that
4 time, or in relation to where you were,
5 where was your office at that time?
6 A It was in the old courthouse approximately
7 40 or 50 feet south of where I was
8 standing.
9 Q Did you see the presidential motorcade on that
10 day, sir?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Before I proceed I’m going to also give you a
13 small emblem which represents a man, and
14 ask you to proceed to the markup and paste
15 yourself on the markup in accordance with
16 where you were on that date.
17 A (The witness complies.)
18 Q Mr. West, what was the location of the
19 presidential limousine at the time your
20 first saw it on November 22, sir?
21 A It was going west on Main Street at approxi-
22 mately Record Street, which is the first
23 street east of Houston.
24 Q Did you observe the presidential limousine
25 as it approached Houston Street?
Page 53
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q In which direction did the presidential
3 limousine proceed upon reaching Houston
4 Street?
5 A It turned to the right, or to the north.
6 Q At what time did you lose sight of the
7 presidential limousine, if in fact you
8 ever lost sight of it?
9 A Shortly after it turned to the left, or back
10 west on Elm Street.
11 Q When did you again regain visual observation
12 of the presidential limousine?
13 A Before it went under the underpass.
14 Q Would you please step up and indicate the
15 location of the underpass of which you are
16 speaking on the aerial photograph and then
17 also on the plat which you have drawn?
18 A (The witness complies.)
19 Q Now would you indicate this on the markup,
20 sir?
21 A (The witness complies.)
22 Q Now, Mr. West, did you see or hear anything
23 unusual as the presidential motorcade
24 proceeded through Dealey Plaza on
25 November 22?
Page 54
1 A Some time after it turned on Elm Street I
2 heard what sounded to me at that time as
3 what I thought was backfiring, a motor-
4 cycle.
5 Q How many of these backfires did you hear?
6 A Four.
7 Q Did you at any time during this period determine
8 them to be anything other than backfires?
9 MR. DYMOND:
10 Object, unless of his own knowledge he did.
11 MR. SCIAMBRA:
12 That is what I asked him.
13 THE COURT:
14 From your own knowledge did you make any
15 determination?
16 THE WITNESS:
17 I made no examination, no, sir.
18 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
19 Q Did you recognize any of the noise which you
20 have described as anything other than a
21 backfire?
22 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
23 Objection, he already testified it was
24 backfire. Now he is trying to
25 change his witness testimony.
Page 55
1 MR. SCIAMBRA:
2 I am asking him if he ever determined it
3 to be anything else.
4 THE COURT:
5 Put the question differently, would you
6 please?
7 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
8 Q Mr. West, did you hear any unusual noise?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q On how many occasions did you hear this noise?
11 A Four.
12 Q Did it sound the same on each occasion?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q What did you think this noise was on the first
15 occasion?
16 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
17 Objection, he has already said it sounded
18 the same on each occasion.
19 THE COURT:
20 I will permit the question. You may ask
21 the same on each occasion.
22 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
23 Q What did it sound like on the first occasion?
24 A A motorcycle backfired.
25 Q What did it sound like on the second occasion?
Page 56
1 A A rifle fired.
2 Q It sounded to you like rifle fire --
3 THE COURT:
4 You needn’t repeat his testimony.
5 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
6 Q What did it sound like to you on the third
7 occasion?
8 A It appeared to me it was rifle fire after the
9 second. The first and the second my
10 response was it was motorcycle backfire.
11 Q What was your response to the third sound that
12 you heard?
13 A Rifle fire.
14 Q Were these loud sounds?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Were you able to determine at any time during
17 the course of these the location or the
18 area from which these sounds were
19 emanating?
20 MR. DYMOND:
21 Objection on the ground it calls for an
22 opinion.
23 MR. SCIAMBRA:
24 This is within his knowledge.
25 THE COURT:
Page 57
1 You don’t have to argue. If you know of
2 your own personal knowledge you can
3 answer the question.
4 THE WITNESS:
5 The sound came from the northwest quadrant
6 of Dealey Plaza.
7 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
8 Q Will you please step down from the witness
9 chair and proceed to your plat and indicate
10 to the Gentlemen of the Jury what the
11 northwest quadrant of Dealey Plaza is.
12 A This entire area north and west of Elm Street.
13 Q Were you able, or can you at this time tell the
14 Gentlemen of the Jury what interval of
15 time there appeared to be between the first
16 and the second reports which you heard?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Can you tell us the interval between the second
19 and the third?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q The third and fourth?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Mr. West, you will notice on what has been
24 previously marked as S-34, which is the
25 aerial photograph, a line of dots. I will
Page 58
1 ask you whether or not this is the route
2 taken --
3 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
4 Objection on the grounds it is leading.
5 THE COURT:
6 Rephrase your question, please.
7 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
8 Q Would you indicate to the Gentlemen of the Jury
9 by stepping to this aerial photograph the
10 route taken by the presidential limousine?
11 A The limousine was going west on Elm, north
12 on Houston and back west -- pardon me,
13 west on main, north on Houston and back
14 west on Elm.
15 Q Mr. West, is it possible for you to tell the
16 Gentlemen of the Jury the approximate span
17 of time that elapsed between the first
18 report which you heard and the last report
19 which you heard?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Mr. West, when was the last time you observed
22 the presidential limousine?
23 A Somewhere shortly before it went under the
24 triple underpass.
25 Q Were there many persons in Dealey Plaza on
Page 59
1 November 22?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q As the presidential limousine proceeded out of
4 sight what, if anything, did the persons
5 in Dealey Plaza do?
6 A There seemed to be a commotion.
7 Q Was there any particular reaction --
8 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
9 Objection, that is calling for an opinion.
10 THE COURT:
11 Allow him to tell what he saw without
12 leading him. He can explain what he
13 saw without leading.
14 THE WITNESS:
15 Are you referring to the individual
16 persons?
17 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
18 Q No, the crowd in general, sir. Let me rephrase
19 the question.
20 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
21 I suggest he be allowed to answer the
22 question.
23 THE COURT:
24 Tell us in your own words what happened.
25 THE WITNESS:
Page 60
1 There seemed to be a commotion.
2 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
3 Q Did the crowd react in any particular direction
4 that you saw?
5 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
6 Objection, he’s leading the witness again,
7 Your Honor.
8 THE COURT:
9 Tell us what happened without any leading.
10 THE WITNESS:
11 When I left my position on the corner of
12 Main and Houston and went across into
13 Dealey Plaza area, there was quite a
14 commotion. A police motorcycle and
15 several men coming up, what is
16 indicated on the aerial photograph as
17 the grassy knoll. When I got over to
18 the motorcycle there were several men
19 up behind the wood stockade fence
20 along the north edge of the grassy
21 knoll.
22 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
23 Q Would you just put the general area from where
24 you stated you heard the shots come from?
25 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
Page 61
1 Objection to leading.
2 THE COURT:
3 Rephrase your question.
4 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
5 Q In relation to the grassy knoll, from which
6 area did you hear the shots?
7 A The grassy knoll is in the same northwest
8 quadrant as I heard the shots.
9 Q Would you please step down and indicate to the
10 Gentlemen of the Jury where the grassy
11 knoll was located?
12 A On the aerial photograph it is located along
13 this area.
14 Q You stated you saw a motorcycle man get off of
15 his motorcycle.
16 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
17 I object. There has been no such
18 testimony.
19 THE COURT:
20 Don’t lead.
21 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
22 Q Standing next to the aerial photograph, would
23 you please point to the direction in which
24 you have testified you saw people running?
25 A The direction from where it is indicated
Page 62
1 Elm Street on here to the direction of the
2 top of the aerial photograph towards the
3 grassy knoll.
4 Q Where did you go?
5 A I went to the area right below what is indicated
6 here as the grassy knoll, on the sidewalk.
7 Q Is there a wooden fence located in that area,
8 sir?
9 A There is a wooden stockade fence approximately
10 6 feet high located along the top of the
11 grassy knoll.
12 Q Did you observe anyone going around or over this
13 fence?
14 A I observed several men going over the fence.
15 THE COURT:
16 I know you are going to have quite a bit
17 more examination so I would think --
18 MR. SCIAMBRA:
19 I tender the witness, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT:
21 Then I am going to take a five minute
22 recess.
23 (WHEREUPON, a short recess was taken.)
24 THE COURT:
25 Before you proceed, Mr. Dymond, I have
Page 63
1 two announcements to make. Number
2 one, with respect to Article 9, I
3 have been informed, and I believe it,
4 because I noticed it myself, that
5 certain reporters and spectators have
6 seen fit to leave early this
7 afternoon trying to scoop the evidence,
8 and I’m going to have to insist this
9 rule be followed, so it will not
10 create noise and confusion in this
11 court. No one will be permitted to
12 enter or leave the courtroom during
13 the testimony of a witness or argument
14 by Counsel. Entry and exit may only
15 be made during official recesses.
16 This morning, when it was
17 announced Mr. Zapruder was going to
18 be permitted to introduce his film,
19 when we get to it, someone rushed out
20 of the courtroom. If that happens
21 in the future that person’s creden-
22 tials will be taken away. You have
23 co-operated with me for 23 days and
24 I have enough problems of my own
25 without worrying about the reporters
Page 64
1 and spectators, so I would appreciate
2 co-operation in this matter.
3 One other matter; when court is
4 adjourned for the evening at 5:30 and
5 all the spectators have left, and the
6 Jury has left, I will permit the
7 various news media to photograph
8 these three exhibits. As you know,
9 we have pins placed in certain
10 exhibits and if we start moving them
11 from the courtroom to any other place
12 we may knock the pins out. If the
13 witness has already left town there
14 may be a discussion as to where the
15 pin belonged in the first place. It
16 is very important these exhibits be
17 not touched by anybody. If I make
18 that concession to the press at 5:30
19 this afternoon or quarter to 6:00, if
20 you will act like gentlemen and come
21 in here I will permit you to photo-
22 graph the three exhibits. No one will
23 get near or touch them because if you
24 do you may destroy them. If you want
25 to get word to your photographers I
Page 65
1 will permit you to come in this area
2 over here and take pictures of the
3 three exhibits.
4 Number one, please do not enter
5 or leave during testimony.
6 Number two, you will be able to
7 take photographs of these exhibits
8 this afternoon.
9 Bring the Jury back, please.
10 (WHEREUPON, the Jury returned to the
11 courtroom.)
12 THE COURT:
13 Is the State and Defense ready to proceed?
14 MR. DYMOND:
15 We are ready, Your Honor.
16 MR. ALCOCK:
17 We are read, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT:
19 The status of Mr. West is that he has
20 been tendered for cross-examination.
21 MR. ALCOCK:
22 That is correct.
23 CROSS-EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. DYMOND:
25 Q You have been working in the vicinity of
Page 66
1 Dealey Plaza for many years, have you not,
2 sir?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q About how many years?
5 A Oh, since 1942.
6 Q Is it not a fact, Mr. West, that Elm Street,
7 before it goes under the triple overpass,
8 declines rather sharply?
9 A Considerably.
10 Q Is it not also a fact, Mr. West, there being
11 many buildings around Dealey Plaza there,
12 that you have the effect of a valley which
13 is very susceptible to echoes and in which
14 it is very difficult to determine the
15 direction from which sound is coming?
16 A Number one, I don’t remember ever having heard
17 an echo, or what I knew was an echo. As
18 to which way sound is coming from, I don’t
19 know I ever had any trouble.
20 Q You say you heard four noises, the first two of
21 which you thought were motorcycle
22 backfires and the last two of which you
23 thought were shots, is that right?
24 A Right.
25 Q Mr. West, in your mind are you positive as to
Page 67
1 the number of sounds you heard, or is that
2 a matter of some conjecture?
3 A That was my response on that day.
4 Q You do admit, sir, the circumstances were very
5 exciting and created a situation which was
6 very possibly susceptible to error, do you
7 not, sir?
8 A They were extremely exciting.
9 Q I take it you recognize the fact you could be
10 mistaken as to the number of sounds, is
11 that right, sir?
12 A It is possible.
13 Q Mr. West, do you remember approximately when
14 the parade route, that is the route which
15 the presidential motorcade would take, was
16 made public in Dallas?
17 A No, sir, I do not.
18 Q Could you tell us approximately how long before
19 the 22nd of November, 1963 --
20 MR. ALCOCK:
21 Objection, he has already answered the
22 question.
23 THE COURT:
24 I will sustain the objection. If a
25 person says he doesn’t know how can
Page 68
1 you get him to approximate it?
2 MR. DYMOND:
3 He may have learned it from what was
4 published in the newspaper.
5 MR. ALCOCK:
6 It is hearsay what he read in the
7 newspapers.
8 THE COURT:
9 Can you approximate the time? When was
10 it made public?
11 THE WITNESS:
12 I don’t know when it was made public.
13 All of the parades up to that time
14 in Dallas were down Main Street.
15 They all came by the courthouse and
16 therefore I felt, or knew, the
17 parade would come down Main Street.
18 The route of the procession, as to
19 when it was published, I couldn’t
20 say.
21 BY MR. DYMOND:
22 Q When did you first learn that President Kennedy
23 was going to come to Dallas? About how
24 long before November 22?
25 A Well, I knew at least a day before when he was
Page 69
1 in Fort Worth that the plans were for him
2 to come to Dallas.
3 Q Did you know as much as a week before
4 November 22?
5 A I couldn’t say.
6 Q Mr. West, would you mind stepping down to this
7 plat here and pointing out the relative
8 positions --
9 THE COURT:
10 Your back is turned to the Court Reporter,
11 Mr. Dymond, so would you mind speaking
12 loudly, please?
13 BY MR. DYMOND:
14 Q The exhibit is State-35. Would you point out
15 the relative positions where you were
16 standing and the spot where you saw the
17 motorcade first on Elm Street? Would you
18 put your finger on each one of them?
19 A I was standing at the point indicated by the
20 pin here at the southeast corner of the
21 intersection of Main and Houston. The
22 first time I saw the motorcade at Elm
23 Street was at this point here immediately
24 after we had turned onto Elm Street.
25 Q Would you kindly place an X on the spot where
Page 70
1 you first saw the motorcade enter Elm
2 Street?
3 A It is approximately at this spot I have marked
4 with an X on my map.
5 Q Where was the motorcade when you next saw it
6 on Elm Street?
7 A It was approximately where I have indicated by
8 this X, the first X to the left here.
9 Q Could you tell me approximately how many feet
10 the motorcade was when you saw it at the
11 second spot indicated at Elm Street?
12 A How many feet between the two points do you
13 mean?
14 Q Between you and the spot where you next saw
15 the parade on Elm Street.
16 A I would have to have a scale. 360 feet
17 approximately.
18 Q All right, sir, you may take the stand again,
19 thank you. I understand, Mr. West, it was
20 your opinion that the noises which you
21 heard came from northwest of you, is that
22 correct?
23 A Right.
24 Q I would take it that you would not claim to be
25 able to tell exactly what direction
Page 71
1 they came from, that is in degrees, would
2 you, sir?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q But you would say generally in a northwesterly
5 direction, is that right?
6 A Right.
7 Q I’m going to ask you whether it is not a fact
8 that the Texas School Book Depository was
9 slightly northwest of where you were
10 standing at that time?
11 A Right.
12 Q It was?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q I hate to impose upon you again, but would you
15 mind stepping back to the map and pointing
16 out where the Texas School Book Depository
17 is? I would ask you to place an X on it.
18 A It is in the upper right-hand corner of the
19 map, indicated on the map by Texas School
20 Book Depository, 411 Elm Street.
21 Q Would you also point it out on the aerial
22 photograph?
23 A It is in the same relative position, the Texas
24 School Book Depository Building, lettered
25 on the front of the building.
Page 72
1 Q Would it be possible on the aerial photograph
2 to place an X on the spot you were
3 standing?
4 A It would be close. I couldn’t say whether I
5 would be behind the part of the old
6 courthouse shown or not.
7 Q Would you do your best and explain what error
8 there may be in this?
9 A I would be on the sidewalk on the south side of
10 Elm Street approximately to the left of
11 the old courthouse building. I could have
12 been 5 feet further to the right or behind
13 the building.
14 Q You could possible be further to the right of
15 Main Street to an extent which would not
16 be shown on this aerial photograph, is that
17 right, sir?
18 A Right.
19 Q You may return to the stand, Mr. West.
20 Thank you, sir. Mr. West, you say Dealey
21 Plaza in general was quite crowded on that
22 day, was it not, sir?
23 A There were quite a few people in Dealey Plaza.
24 As far as the open area being full of
25 people, no, sir.
Page 73
1 Q Is it not a fact, sir, some of the crucial
2 participants in that motorcade ran back
3 towards the grassy knoll area after the
4 shots were fired?
5 A I don’t know who they were. I know the City
6 policeman whose motorcycle was parked
7 there at the curb was upon the grassy
8 knoll.
9 Q I take it you don’t know if they were trying
10 to get away from the shots or why they were
11 going over the fence?
12 A No, sir.
13 MR. DYMOND:
14 That’s all, thank you, sir.
15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
17 Q Mr. West, you went in the direction of the
18 grassy knoll --
19 MR. DYMOND:
20 Objection to leading the witness.
21 MR. SCIAMBRA:
22 He testified to it.
23 MR. DYMOND:
24 I object to repeating the witness’ answer.
25 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Page 74
1 Q In what direction did you go after the motor-
2 cade disappeared under the underpass?
3 A Towards what is shown as the grassy knoll.
4 Q Why did you go in that direction?
5 A Because that is what appeared to me --
6 MR. DYMOND:
7 I object to what appeared to him to be.
8 THE COURT:
9 I will overrule the objection.
10 MR. DYMOND:
11 To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill,
12 making the question, the answer and
13 the entire testimony up to this point
14 and the ruling of the Court as part
15 of the bill.
16 THE WITNESS:
17 It appeared to me all the action, all the
18 activity, was going on in that
19 particular part.
20 BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
21 Q How many parades have you seen come down
22 Main Street?
23 A One hundred I guess.
24 Q In order to go from Main Street in the most
25 direct route to the Trade Mart, in what
Page 75
1 direction would you go on reaching Houston?
2 A I would go to Elm Street.
3 Q Why is that, sir?
4 A To get on the Stemmons Freeway.
5 Q Why would you turn off of Main Street at that
6 point?
7 A There is no access from Main Street to the
8 Stemmons Freeway. The only access to it
9 is from Elm Street.
10 Q Did you testify before the Warren Commission?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did any FBI agent ever interview you?
13 A Ever what?
14 Q Ever interview you relative to what you heard
15 in Dealey Plaza?
16 A No, sir.
17 MR. SCIAMBRA:
18 I have no further questions.
19 RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. DYMOND:
21 Q Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald there?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you ever see this Defendant, Clay Shaw
24 there?
25 A No, sir.
Page 76
1 MR. DYMOND:
2 That’s all.
3 THE COURT:
4 You may step down.
5 (WITNESS EXCUSED.)
6 ...oOo...
7 ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER,
8 recalled to the stand, having previously been sworn
9 testified further on his oath as follows:
10 THE COURT:
11 Your previous oath is till binding,
12 Mr. Zapruder.
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION
14 (CONTINUED)
15 BY MR. OSER:
16 Q Mr. Zapruder, will you tell me again where your
17 business is located?
18 A 501 Elm Street.
19 Q In what building is that?
20 A The Daltex Building.
21 Q On November 22, 1963, did you have an occasion
22 to be in the area of Dallas, Texas, known
23 as Dealey Plaza?
24 MR. WILLIAM WEGMANN:
25 This is repetitious.
Page 77
1 MR. OSER:
2 I am getting back to where we were.
3 THE WITNESS:
4 I don’t understand the question. Will
5 you repeat it?
6 THE COURT:
7 I will allow the question.
8 BY MR. OSER:
9 Q On the date of November 22, 1963, did you have
10 an occasion to be in that area of Dallas
11 known as Dealey Plaza?
12 A I imagine you mean at the place where I was
13 taking pictures.
14 Q Yes.
15 A Yes, I came down to take pictures of the
16 President and whatever it was.
17 Q From what area or location did you view the
18 motorcade? Where were you?
19 A I was on the abutment. Do you mean geographical-
20 ly, whether it is east, west, north or
21 south? Is that what you want to know?
22 Q Yes, sir. Where were you?
23 A I will have to figure it out.
24 Q Where were you standing?
25 A When I took the pictures?
Page 78
1 Q Yes, sir.
2 A On a concrete abutment.
3 Q I ask you to step down in front of Exhibit S-34
4 for the purpose of identification, and
5 point out to the Court whether you can
6 location your position where you were
7 standing when you took some movie films on
8 November 22, 1963, if you would, please?
9 A Right here.
10 Q Would you put an X there please?
11 THE COURT:
12 May I make a suggestion; we are going to
13 have too many X’s. Would you put a
14 Z for Zapruder.
15 BY MR. OSER:
16 Q I direct your attention to Exhibit S-36 for
17 purpose of identification, which I am now
18 pointing to -- I am sorry, S-35. Could
19 you locate the position on this exhibit
20 where you were on November 22, 1963, taking
21 motion pictures?
22 A Over here.
23 Q Mr. Zapruder, would you please place this pin
24 with your name thereon at the location?
25 A (The witness complies.)
Page 79
1 Q Now, Mr. Zapruder, I direct your attention to
2 State Exhibit S-36 for identification, and
3 ask if you can locate on this markup the
4 location you were on November 22, 1963?
5 A Is this the Daltex Building?
6 THE COURT:
7 Unless the Jury can hear you it is no good
8 your giving evidence.
9 THE WITNESS:
10 I asked if this was the Daltex Building.
11 THE COURT:
12 I can’t hear a word you are saying.
13 THE WITNESS:
14 I asked if this was the Daltex Building.
15 THE COURT:
16 If you don’t know, who would know it?
17 THE WITNESS:
18 Give me some time.
19 THE COURT:
20 You can take all the time you need.
21 BY MR. OSER:
22 Q I give you a small emblem. Would you place
23 that in the location where you were when
24 you took the photographs?
25 A (The witness complied.)
Page 80
1 Q Thank you. Have your seat back, please, on the
2 stand. Mr. Zapruder, as you were standing
3 in this location that you have pointed out
4 taking your motion pictures what, if
5 anything, did you see as you took this
6 film? Would you please describe it for
7 the Jury?
8 A I don’t understand the question.
9 Q What did you see as you took your films in
10 Dealey Plaza that day? Explain to the
11 Jury.
12 A I saw the approaching motorcade of the
13 President coming from Houston Street,
14 turning left on Elm Street and coming
15 down towards the underpass. As they were
16 approaching where I was standing I heard
17 a shot and noticed where the President
18 leaned towards Jackie. Then I heard
19 another shot which hit him right in the
20 head, over here, and his head practically
21 opened up and a lot of blood and many more
22 things came out.
23 Q At the time, Mr. Zapruder, you heard the first
24 shot were you able to see what reactions,
25 if any, President Kennedy made at the
Page 81
1 time you heard this first shot? What
2 did he do, sir, as you saw it?
3 A As I said, he grabbed himself with his hand
4 towards his chest or throat and leaned
5 towards Jackie.
6 Q At the time you heard the second shot, would
7 you describe the reactions of
8 President Kennedy as you saw them?
9 A He leaned about the same way in falling towards
10 Jacqueline, forward, down towards the
11 bottom of the car.
12 Q What happened at the time of the second shot
13 in regard to President Kennedy?
14 A What happened -- I don’t understand.
15 Q As you saw it, what happened at the time the
16 second shot went off in regard to
17 President Kennedy? What did you see?
18 A I thought I just described what I saw. You
19 mean where it hit him?
20 Q Yes.
21 A I saw the head practically open up and blood
22 and many more things, whatever it was,
23 brains, just came out of his head.
24 Q At the time when you heard these two shots,
25 who was standing with you, if anybody?
Page 82
1 A One of my secretaries was right behind me.
2 Q After the car passed under the underpass, what
3 did you do?
4 A I got off the abutment and walked towards my
5 office. I was screaming “They shot him,
6 they shot him.” People asked me what
7 happened, they probably didn’t see what
8 happened, they heard a shot but didn’t
9 see actually what happened. I kept saying,
10 “They killed him, they killed him,” and
11 went to my office.
12 Q When you got to your office what, if anything,
13 did you do with regard to your movie
14 camera and films?
15 A I had my secretary call either the police or
16 the FBI, I don’t remember which. She
17 called somebody. The Secret Service
18 Q After this did you do anything in regard to
19 your film? Did you go anywhere with your
20 film?
21 A Yes, sir, a patrol car came and took me down
22 to a station where they were trying to
23 develop films, but they hadn’t got the
24 facilities to develop colored film. We
25 called the Eastman Kodak people and made
Page 83
1 arrangements for them to develop the
2 film. We went to the Eastman people.
3 Q After going to the Eastman people did you go
4 anywhere else with your film?
5 A Yes. They advised me not to cut the film.
6 This was 8 millimeter of the old type that
7 was actually a 16 millimeter film, it was
8 cut after it was developed, and they
9 advised me to go to another -- I think it
10 was Jameson film, or something like that,
11 to have them developed there into a 16,
12 and they were to somehow process it and
13 split 8 millimeter, and that’s what I did.
14 Q As a result of going with your film to these
15 various locations, Mr. Zapruder, did you
16 have in your possession a developed roll
17 of film, and if so, how many of them?
18 A The first time the Jameson people developed
19 the original 16 millimeter, then copies
20 were made at Eastman. I had three copies
21 plus the original.
22 Q What, if anything, did you do with the three
23 copies and one original?
24 A One copy was given to the Dallas Secret
25 Service, and one they asked me to bring
Page 84
1 over to somewhere on Akard Street, I
2 believe it was the FBI or Secret Service,
3 to give them a copy to be sent to
4 Washington. I think it was sent to
5 Washington the same night by Army plane.
6 One copy was given to Life Magazine.
7 Q During the time your film was being processed,
8 were you present, sir?
9 A Yes, sir, I was.
10 Q On that particular day did you have occasion
11 to view what your film showed?
12 A Yes, the same evening I saw this film.
13 Q Mr. Zapruder, do you have in your possession at
14 this present time a copy of this film?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q May I have it, sir?
17 A Yes.
18 MR. OSER:
19 If the Court please, the State will mark
20 the envelope containing a roll of
21 film as S-37 for purposes of
22 identification.
23 THE COURT:
24 And for purposes of identification only?
25 MR. OSER:
Page 85
1 Yes, sir.
2 BY MR. OSER:
3 Q The contents of this package, the roll of
4 film, have you had occasion to view the
5 contents of this film?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q What is contained on this roll of film, is that
8 the same as you saw it from the developed
9 original on November 22, 1963?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Mr. Zapruder, what is depicted on this exhibit
12 I have marked as S-37, the roll of film,
13 as you saw it?
14 MR. DYMOND:
15 I object. We object to his testifying as
16 to what is depicted on it. If the
17 film is admissible the film itself
18 is best evidence.
19 THE COURT:
20 I sustain the objection.
21 MR. OSER:
22 At this time we offer into evidence that
23 which we previously marked for
24 identification as S-37, the film
25 testified to by Mr. Zapruder.
Page 86
1 MR. DYMOND:
2 At this time we would like to traverse on
3 the offer.
4 THE COURT:
5 You may traverse.
6 BY MR. DYMOND:
7 Q You say you were present when the copies of
8 your film were made?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Were you actually present in the room in which
11 these copies were being made?
12 A Yes, sir, I was in the processing room watching
13 them actually process the film.
14 Q Is the copy you have here today identical to
15 the original or are there any plates
16 missing out of this copy?
17 A That would be hard for me to tell, sir.
18 THE COURT:
19 I cannot hear the witness. What is it?
20 THE WITNESS:
21 That would be hard for me to say. He
22 asked me if there are any frames
23 missing.
24 THE COURT:
25 What is your answer?
Page 87
1 THE WITNESS:
2 I couldn’t say.
3 BY MR. DYMOND:
4 Q So you don’t know whether it is a complete copy
5 of the film you took on the 22nd of
6 November?
7 A Not if there are one or two frames missing, I
8 couldn’t tell you.
9 Q Mr. Zapruder, when these copies were made, do
10 I understand you ended up with an original
11 and two copies of the film?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q You gave one copy to the Dallas Police
14 Intelligence Section, is that correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q One copy to the FBI?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And one copy to Life Magazine?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Where did you get this copy you have produced
21 here in open court today, if you disposed of
22 all the copies?
23 A I got them from Mr. Oser’s office.
24 Q In other words, this film has not been in your
25 possession up until now, is that correct?
Page 88
1 A No. It was given to me in his office.
2 MR. DYMOND:
3 That is all we have on traverse, Your
4 Honor, and we submit the proper
5 foundation has not been laid for
6 the introduction of this film in
7 evidence.
8 THE COURT:
9 Take the Jury out, Sheriff.
10 (WHEREUPON, the Jury retired from
11 the courtroom.)
12 THE COURT:
13 The objection is well taken for this
14 reason: Mr. Zapruder did not bring
15 this film with him, and I would
16 suggest before I make a final ruling
17 that you roll the film for the
18 benefit of Mr. Zapruder only so that
19 he can see what is depicted on that
20 day. You could then renew your
21 offer and I will rule on it.
22 MR. OSER:
23 All right, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT:
25 Is it necessary for us to black out and
Page 89
1 cut the lights out in the room?
2 MR. OSER:
3 I think so, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT:
5 Very well. Sheriff, will you throw those
6 switches. Mr. Zapruder, when this
7 equipment is properly rigged up and
8 they play this film, don’t say
9 anything while they are playing the
10 film. You will be asked questions
11 after the film is played.
12 (WHEREUPON, the film was shown.)
13 THE COURT:
14 Before we bring the Jury in, I think
15 the State has to ask a question of
16 this witness.
17 MR. DYMOND:
18 There is one question I would like to
19 ask also, Judge.
20 THE COURT:
21 Let Mr. Oser ask his question first.
22 BY MR. OSER:
23 Q Mr. Zapruder, from having seen the film just
24 projected on the screen, can you tell us
25 whether or not this represents what you
Page 90
1 saw on November 22, 1963, after your
2 original film was developed in Dallas,
3 Texas?
4 A I would say they do.
5 THE COURT:
6 I didn’t hear you again.
7 THE WITNESS:
8 I would say that they do. Yes, they do.
9 BY MR. DYMOND:
10 Q Mr. Zapruder, are you able to testify that this
11 film that you have just seen run is a
12 complete copy of the pictures taken by you
13 on that day, no frames being missing?
14 A By complete, what do you mean? If there are
15 any frames removed or so?
16 Q Any frames removed or damaged or for any
17 reason not shown in this film?
18 A I couldn’t tell you.
19 Q So you couldn’t tell whether any part has been
20 skipped, is that correct?
21 A I could not.
22 THE COURT:
23 Bring the Jury back.
24 (WHEREUPON, the Jury returned to the
25 courtroom.)
Page 91
1 THE COURT:
2 All right, Mr. Oser, you may proceed.
3 BY MR. OSER:
4 Q Mr. Zapruder, from having seen what was
5 projected on this film, can you tell the
6 Court whether or not it appears to be the
7 same as you viewed your original film on
8 November 22, 1963 in Dallas, Texas?
9 A Yes, it does.
10 MR. OSER:
11 I tender the witness on traverse.
12 BY MR. DYMOND:
13 Q This will sound repetitious, but it is because
14 the Jury has now come in. Having viewed
15 this film, sir, are you in a position to
16 say whether the film you have just seen
17 is a complete copy of what you took with-
18 out any frames having been deleted or
19 taken out or skipped?
20 A I couldn’t tell if any frames were removed.
21 Seen as a whole it shows that I have seen.
22 Seeing you have 18 frames a second you
23 can take out one or two and I couldn’t
24 tell.
25 Q Weren’t some frames damaged by the people at
Page 92
1 Life Magazine to the point where copies
2 couldn’t be made of them?
3 MR. OSER:
4 Objection.
5 THE COURT:
6 I will permit the question on traverse.
7 THE WITNESS:
8 I don’t know, I couldn’t verify that.
9 THE COURT:
10 Is the matter submitted?
11 MR. OSER:
12 We submit it, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT:
14 I rule the film may be shown to the Jury.
15 MR. DYMOND:
16 To which ruling Counsel reserves a bill
17 of exception firstly because the
18 film is irrelevant, secondly it has
19 not been established this is the
20 complete film, and further, it has
21 not been in the possession or under
22 the control of this witness from the
23 time of its inception until the
24 present time, making all this
25 witness’ testimony, the film which
Page 93
1 has been marked for identification as
2 State-37, and the entire record up
3 to now part of the bill.
4 THE COURT:
5 The Court’s ruling was made after the Jury
6 had retired and the witness was given
7 an opportunity to see the film, since
8 it was not in his continuous
9 possession. You may proceed.
10 MR. OSER:
11 At this time the State requests permission
12 to play the film.
13 THE COURT:
14 Permission granted. Gentlemen of the Jury,
15 please pay close attention to what
16 you are about to see.
17 (WHEREUPON, the film was then shown
18 again.)
19 THE COURT:
20 If it is requested by the Jury we will
21 rerun this film.
22 MR. OSER:
23 If the Court please, I would like the
24 record to reflect that I am now
25 turning over the exhibit to the
Page 94
1 Clerk of the Court, that is S-37.
2 THE COURT:
3 You mean the Minute Clerk. I have already
4 ruled on the fact it may be shown to
5 the Jury. Is there any objection to
6 its admission?
7 MR. DYMOND:
8 I have already objected earlier.
9 THE COURT:
10 It may be admitted.
11 (WHEREUPON, the exhibit having been
12 previously identified as “S-37" was
13 received in evidence.)
14 THE COURT:
15 The witness may be excused.
16 (WHEREUPON, the witness was excused.)
17 THE COURT:
18 We will take a five-minute recess.
19 (WHEREUPON, a short recess was taken>)
20 THE COURT:
21 Gentlemen, before we proceed any further,
22 I have been advised that the Jury
23 would like to have the film replayed.
24 I will order the Minute Clerk, who
25 has possession of Exhibit S-37, to
Page 95
1 turn it back over to Mr. Oser.
2 Let that show in the record.
3 (WHEREUPON, the film was then shown
4 again.)
5 THE COURT:
6 I have been advised that a reporter had the
7 gall to ask if he could take a picture
8 of this film while it was being shown
9 in court. Don’t they realize all rights
10 are served on this picture?
11 MR. OSER:
12 That is why I turned it over to the Court.
13 THE COURT:
14 I don’t want anybody surreptitiously trying
15 to take pictures of this film.
16 Let the film be shown again frame by frame.
17 (WHEREUPON, the film was then shown again,
18 frame by frame.)
19 A MEMBER OF THE JURY:
20 Begging your pardon, but I would appreciate
21 it if we could see the last half of this
22 film one more time at normal speed.
23 THE COURT:
24 Very well, rewind it.
25 (WHEREUPON, the last half of the film
Page 96
1 was then played again.)
2 THE COURT:
3 Was that the part you wanted?
4 A MEMBER OF THE JURY:
5 Yes, sir, thank you, sir.
6 THE COURT:
7 Gentlemen, I understand from the State
8 they have a witness who wants to be
9 heard this afternoon. It is 29
10 minutes after 5:00. Is your witness
11 planning to leave the state this evening?
12 MR. ALCOCK:
13 Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT:
15 How long will he be?
16 MR. ALCOCK:
17 Direct Examination will take no more than
18 10, 15 minutes.
19 MR. OSER:
20 May the record reflect I am returning
21 the film to the Minute Clerk.
22 ...oOo...
23
24
25
Page 97
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I, the undersigned, Clifford Jefferson, do
3 hereby certify:
4 That the above and foregoing (96 pages of
5 typewritten matter) is a true and correct transcription
6 of the stenographic notes of the proceedings had herein,
7 the same having been taken down by Clifford Jefferson and
8 transcribed under his supervision, on the date and day
9 hereinbefore noted, in the Criminal District Court for
10 the Parish of Orleans, State of Louisiana, in the matter of
11 the State of Louisiana vs. Clay L. Shaw, 198-059 1426 (30)
12 Section “C” on the 13th day of February, 1969, before the
13 Honorable Edward A. Haggerty, Jr., Judge, Section “C”,
14 being an excerpt of the testimony of certain witnesses
15 as shown in the index hereof.
16 New Orleans, Louisiana, this 23rd day of May,
17 1969.
18 /S/ Clifford Jefferson
CLIFFORD JEFFERSON
19 REPORTER
20
21
22
23
24
25
2020
CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT
PARISH OF ORLEANS
STATE OF LOUISIANA
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.
STATE OF LOUISIANA . 198-059
.
vs. . 1426 (30)
.
CLAY L. SHAW . SECTION “C”
.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
EXCERPT OF THE TESTIMONY
TAKEN IN OPEN COURT
February 13, 1969
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE EDWARD A. HAGGERTY, JR.,
JUDGE, SECTION "C"
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