Testimony Of Marrion L. Baker

The Chairman.: Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Mr. Baker.: I do, sir.
The Chairman.: You may be seated. I will read a little short brief statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our meeting today.
The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination.
Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas theater.

I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the inquiry we are making today and we will make of you. Mr. Belin will conduct the examination.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for the Commission?
Mr. Baker.: Marrion L. Baker.
Mr. Belin.: You are known as M. L. Baker?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: What is your occupation?
Mr. Baker.: With Dallas Police Department.
Mr. Belin.: How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. Baker.: Almost 10 years.
Mr. Belin.: How old are you, Officer Baker?
Mr. Baker.: Thirty-three.
Mr. Belin.: Where were you born?
Mr. Baker.: In a little town called Blum, Tex.
Mr. Belin.: Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade.
Mr. Belin.: Then where did you go?
Mr. Baker.: We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q. Mills School Elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School.
Mr. Belin.: In Dallas?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do after you graduated from high school?
Mr. Baker.: I think I got married.
The Chairman.: Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the meeting from this time on.
Excuse me, gentlemen.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. Belin.: After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the way of vocation?
Mr. Baker.: I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin Co.
Mr. Belin.: How long did you work for Continental?
Mr. Baker.: Approximately 3 months.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do at Ford?
Mr. Baker.: Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance Vought at that time, aircraft.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do at Ford, sir?
Mr. Baker.: I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would call it.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: I was a material clerk.
Mr. Belin.: How long did you work for them?
Mr. Baker.: I didn't understand?
Mr. Belin.: How long did you work for the aircraft company?
Mr. Baker.: It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half.
Mr. Belin.: All right, then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: At that time it. was uncertain out there whether you would stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff there.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do there?
Mr. Baker.: I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the delivering at that time.
Mr. Belin.: How long did you stay with them?
Mr. Baker.: A little over 3 years.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did you. do?
Mr. Baker.: Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas.
Mr. Belin.: With the police department?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you take a course of instruction for the police department?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out there.
Mr. Belin.: How long was this schooling period, approximately?
Mr. Baker.: Four months.
Mr. Belin.: After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy, did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a patrolman or what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23 months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division.
Mr. Belin.: When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where two men would be--
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the last 7 or 8 years?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Belin.: By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what?
Mr. Baker.: If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads.
Mr. Belin.: Were there some one-man squads, too?
Mr. Baker.: Very few.
Mr. Belin.: What about today, do you know what the situation is?
Mr. Baker.: They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of one-man squads now.
Mr. Belin.: They have a lot of one-man squads now?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: Not because of the procedures?
Mr. Baker.: Now, at night they try to ride them two men.
Mr. Belin.: In the daytime what is the situation now?
Mr. Baker.: Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and the outlying squads are one man.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day?
Mr. Baker.: I was assigned to ride a motorcycle.
Mr. Belin.: And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle?
Mr. Baker.: At this particular day in the office up there before we went out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right beside the President's car.
Mr. Belin.: About when was this that you received these instructions?
Mr. Baker.: Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day, somewhere around 8 o'clock.
Mr. Belin.: And from whom did you receive your original instructions to ride by the side of the President's car?
Mr. Baker.: Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This is all made up in the captain's office, I believe.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Dulles.: Captain Curry?
Mr. Baker.: Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence.
Mr. Belin.: Were these instructions ever changed?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the President's car.
Mr. Belin.: Did he tell you why or why not?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned there and we were moved by request.
Mr. Belin.: On that day, you mean?
Mr. Baker.: Well, that day and several other occasions when I have escorted them.
Mr. Belin.: On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to ride after this assignment was changed?
Mr. Baker.: They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I believe he called it the press, behind the car.
Mr. Belin.: Beyond the press?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at the airport or was it before?
Mr. Baker.: It seemed like it was after he arrived out there.
Mr. Belin.: Had you already seen him get out of the plane?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: About what time was it before the motorcade left that you were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or what?
Mr. Baker.: It was 5 or 10 minutes before.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the motorcade?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler?
Mr. Baker.: It was a two-wheeler.
Mr. Belin.: You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown Dallas?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the motorcade got to Main Street?
Mr. Baker.: You say how fast?
Mr. Belin.: No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it going down Main Street at anytime?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets.
Mr. Baker.: Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour.
Mr. Dulles.: There is a map right behind you.

(Discussion off the record)

Mr. Belin.: Back on the record again.
Mr. Dulles.: Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7 feet right behind the President's car
Mr. Baker.: That was the Secret Service car.
Mr. Dulles.: That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or what?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car.
Mr. Dulles.: When you say "this car" what do you mean?
Mr. Baker.: That Secret Service car.
Mr. Dulles.: The Secret Service car right behind the President?
Mr. Baker.: And there was one more car in there.
Mr. Dulles.: Behind that?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: And then?
Mr. Baker.: There were four press cars carrying the press and I was right at the side of that last one.
Representative Boggs.: The last press car?
Mr. Dulles.: The last press car?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at this stage?
Mr. Baker.: Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block.
Mr. Dulles.: A half block?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at Elm Street.
Mr. Belin.: You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is right.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
I believe pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question?
Mr. Dulles.: That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was.
Mr. Belin.: You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at from 5 to 10 miles an hour?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Will you take up your trip from there, please?
Mr. Baker.: As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there, which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance.
Mr. Belin.: How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as you turned the corner, if you know?
Mr. Baker.: I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we were just creeping along real slowly.
Mr. Dulles.: That is turning from Main into Houston?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: You turned-do you have any actual speed estimate as you turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow?
Mr. Baker.: I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance.
Mr. Belin.: From what direction was the wind coming When it hit you?
Mr. Baker.: Due north.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?
Mr. Baker.: AS I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did?
Mr. Baker.: As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up---
Mr. Dulles.: I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were coming down Houston.
Mr. Belin.: Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a minute. If we could----
Mr. Dulles.: I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the chart there.
Mr. Baker.: This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I got somewhere about right here----
Mr. Dulles.: That is halfway down the first block.
Mr. Belin.: No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute?
Mr. Dulles.: Certainly.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as extended?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.
Mr. Belin.: And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street?
Mr. Baker.: We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the north curbline of Main on Houston.
Mr. Dulles.: Thank you.
Mr. Belin.: Does that answer your question?
Mr. Dulles.: That answers my question entirely.
Mr. Belin.: In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else?
Mr. Baker.: It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for about a week.
Mr. Belin.: What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?
Mr. Baker.: It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.
Mr. Belin.: All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. Baker.: Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. Belin.: What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. Baker.: It would be this Book Depository Building.
Mr. Belin.: That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. Baker.: That would be the northwest corner.
Mr. Belin.: All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?
Mr. Baker.: On the northeast corner.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.
Mr. Belin.: From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?
Mr. Baker.: I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did you see or do?
Mr. Baker.: Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn't see around this bend.
Mr. Belin.: Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you heard any more shots?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.
Mr. Belin.: Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of these shots?
Mr. Baker.: It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they were pretty well even to me.
Mr. Belin.: They were pretty well even.
Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the last shot that you did up to the time or saw--
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around there.
Mr. Belin.: Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Belin.: Were you looking at any of those windows?
Mr. Baker.: I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything.
Mr. Belin.: How many shots did you hear?
Mr. Baker.: Three.
Mr. Belin.: All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.
Mr. Belin.: What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much?
Mr. Baker.: From 180 to 200 feet.
Mr. Belin.: That is where you parked the motorcycle?
Mr. Baker.: Yes.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down.
With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would.
Mr. Baker.: Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the dot represents that signal light, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was 10 feet, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight.
Mr. Baker.: Talking about this one here?
Mr. Belin.: The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Belin.: We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March 20?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway?
Mr. Baker.: Approximately 45 feet.
Mr. Belin.: This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Belin.: After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. As I parked here
Mr. Belin.: You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have marked with "B."
Mr. Baker.: And I was looking westward which would be in this direction.
Mr. Belin.: By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Toward the triple underpass.
Representative Boggs.: Where is the underpass?
Mr. Baker.: The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and there is a triple overpass.
Representative Boggs.: Right.
Mr. Baker.: At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back.
Mr. Belin.: Did you notice anything else?
Mr. Baker.: Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it.
Mr. Belin.: I am trying to see down here.
Mr. Dulles.: I just wanted to get a general idea.
Mr. Belin.: On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here.
Mr. Dulles.: As far as that?
Mr. Belin.: Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that will better describe it.
Mr. Dulles.: All right.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to the building?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Then what did you do after surveying the situation?
Mr. Baker.: I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here.
Mr. Belin.: By this building, you are referring to what?
Mr. Baker.: The Book Depository Building.
Mr. Belin.: Go on.
Representative Boggs.: You were parked right in front of the Building?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; ran right straight to it.
Representative Boggs.: Right.
Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to the Building?
Mr. Baker.: Well, now, let me say this. From this position here.
Mr. Belin.: That is position "B" on Exhibit 361?
Mr. Baker.: There were people running all over this here.
Mr. Belin.: And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in front of the School Building?
Mr. Baker.: You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600 people in this area here.
Representative Boggs.: Yes.
Mr. Baker.: As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way.
Mr. Dulles.: For the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building?
Mr. Baker.: That is right. This little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway.
Mr. Dulles.: Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record.
Mr. Belin.: You then ran into the Building, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Belin.: What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. Baker.: As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump into the back of Mr. Truly?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Belin.: Then what happened?
Mr. Baker.: We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, back there.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.
Mr. Belin.: All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?
Mr. Baker.: He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.
Mr. Belin.: Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; it didn't.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did he do?
Mr. Baker.: He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."
Mr. Belin.: How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. Baker.: It seemed like he did it twice.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Then what did he do?
Mr. Baker.: I said let's take the stairs.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: And we went up them.
Mr. Belin.: You went up the stairs then?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: When you started up the stairs what was your intention at that--
Mr. Baker.: My intention was to go all the way to the top where I thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something there, you know, to indicate that.
Mr. Belin.: And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right away?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; we didn't.
Mr. Baker.: What happened?
Mr. Baker.: As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. Dulles.: Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do then?
Mr. Baker.: I ran on over there
Representative Boggs.: You mean where he was?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do?
Mr. Baker.: I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.
Mr. Belin.: Where were you at the time you hollered?
Mr. Baker.: I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.
Mr. Belin.: He walked back toward you then?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497 which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to "Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not?
Mr. Baker.: This 24 would be the position where I was standing.
Mr. Belin.: The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct.
Mr. Belin.: On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction was he walking?
Mr. Baker.: He was walking east.
Mr. Belin.: Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw him?
Mr. Baker.: As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, really saw him?
Mr. Belin.: As you really saw him.
Mr. Baker.: He was walking away from me with his back toward me.
Mr. Dulles.: Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is quite important.
Mr. Belin.: Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is that correct, and then walked back toward you?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Was he carrying anything in his hands?
Mr. Baker.: He had nothing at that time.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. Belin.: What were you carrying?
Mr. Baker.: I had my revolver out.
Mr. Belin.: When did you take your revolver out?
Mr. Baker.: AS I was starting up the stairway.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around.
Mr. Dulles.: Could we get first where he first saw him.
Representative Boggs.: You have that already.
Mr. Dulles.: I don't think you have it on the chart where he was.
Mr. Belin.: This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. If I can go off the record.
Mr. Dulles.: What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he saw.
Mr. Belin.: Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when you first caught a glimpse of this man?
Mr. Baker.: I was just coming up these stain just around this corner right here.
Mr. Belin.: All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And you saw something move through a door which is marked as what number on Exhibit 497?
Mr. Dulles.: Where was he when you first saw him?
Mr. Baker.: At this doorway right here, this 23.
Mr. Belin.: At 23.
Representative Boggs.: May I ask a couple of questions because I have to--
Mr. Belin.: Surely.
Representative Boggs.: Were you suspicious of this man?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I wasn't.
Representative Boggs.: And he came up to you, did he say anything to you?
Mr. Baker.: Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of everybody because I had my pistol out.
Representative Boggs.: Right.
Mr. Baker.: And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him.
Representative Boggs.: Right.
Mr. Dulles.: He had not seen you up to that point probably?
Mr. Baker.: I don't know whether he had or not.
Representative Boggs.: He came up to you?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and walked back to me.
Representative Boggs.: Right close to you?
Mr. Baker.: And we were right here at this position 24, right here in this doorway.
Representative Boggs.: Right. What did you say to him?
Mr. Baker.: I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs.
Mr. Belin.: Then you continued up the stairway?
Representative Boggs.: Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.
Representative Boggs.: After he had been arrested?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind?
Mr. Baker.: Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.
Mr. Belin.: What door number on that?
Mr. Baker.: This would be 23.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: And at that position there he was already down here some 20 feet away from me.
Representative Boggs.: When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what?
Mr. Baker.: It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.
Representative Boggs.: Was he calm and collected?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit.
Mr. Belin.: Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face.
Mr. Baker.: I had my gun talking to him like this.
Mr. Dulles.: Yes.
Mr. Belin.: How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever part of the body it was?
Mr. Baker.: About as far from me to you.
Mr. Belin.: That would be about how far?
Mr. Baker.: Approximately 3 feet.
Mr. Belin.: Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here?
Mr. Baker.: At that time I never did look back toward him. After he says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly.
Representative Boggs.: That question about time I would like to establish.
How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred?
Mr. Baker.: We went back and made two trial runs on that, and---
Mr. Belin.: Was that on Friday, March 20?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. Dulles.: Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. Baker.: From the last shot.
Mr. Belin.: The first shot.
Mr. Dulles.: The first shot?
Mr. Baker.: The first shot.
We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know. it took me a little longer.
Mr. Dulles.: I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. Baker.: When we saw Oswald.
Mr. Dulles.: When you saw Oswald?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: And that time is how much?
Mr. Baker.: The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.)

Mr. Belin.: Were we walking or running when we did this?
Mr. Baker.: The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second time we hurried it up a little bit.
Mr. Belin.: Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or walk?
Mr. Baker.: From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on into the building.
Mr. Belin.: All right. When we got inside the building did we run or trot or walk?
Mr. Baker.: Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of.
Mr. Belin.: You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March 20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took?
Mr. Baker.: I would say it would be the minimum.
Mr. Belin.: For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did we slow down at all for that?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm Street and the Parkway?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. Belin.: With the stopwatch?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; we made two test runs.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Do you remember what the route was?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: We walked down the east wall.
Mr. Belin.: We started at that particular corner?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.
Mr. Belin.: All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?
Mr. Baker.: That is right.
Mr. Belin.: All right, then where did we go?
Mr. Baker.: To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was.
Mr. Belin.: All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner?
Mr. Baker.: That is right.
Mr. Belin.: Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.
Mr. Belin.: John Howlett.
Mr. Baker.: John Howlett. That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. Belin.: And then what did we do when we got to the where did he do that, do you remember?
Mr. Baker.: That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left- hand side there.
Mr. Belin.: All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did he do?
Mr. Baker.: Then we continued on down the stairs.
Mr. Belin.: To the lunchroom?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Do you remember how long that took?
Mr. Baker.: The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds.
Mr. Belin.: What about the second time?
Mr. Baker.: And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds.
Mr. Belin.: You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Belin.: Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr. Dulles' questions.
Mr. Dulles.: Can we go off the record here one moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Belin.: On the record.
Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door?
Mr. Baker.: That would be the west.
Mr. Belin.: All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up the elevator shaft at that time?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; at that time I did.
Mr. Belin.: This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator shaft?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. Belin.: Wood or metal, do you remember?
Mr. Baker.: It is wood.
Mr. Belin.: What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?
Mr. Baker.: At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from three to four floors up.
Mr. Belin.: Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you hear any elevator moving?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said.
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft?
Mr. Baker.: Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one.
Mr. Belin.: It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time and you did that with the stairs.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. Baker.: Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
Mr. Baker.: At some higher floor after that?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. Belin.: Is this the door through which you glanced as you came around the stairs coming up from the first floor?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?
Mr. Baker.: As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----
Mr. Dulles.: Gone on around and up?
Mr. Baker.: He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.
Mr. Dulles.: Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?
Mr. Baker.: I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.
Mr. Belin.: You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and going through the door almost?
Mr. Baker.: Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving about as fast as I was.
Mr. Dulles.: How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway----
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: From that door through which you eventually went through and then saw Oswald?
Mr. Baker.: I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet, something like that.
Mr. Belin.: All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. Belin.: Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take this picture?
Mr. Baker.: It would be pointed eastward.
Mr. Belin.: All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?
Mr. Baker.: I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.
Mr. Belin.: As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door?
Mr. Baker.: At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.
Mr. Belin.: Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your route to the
Mr. Dulles.: Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully.
If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, that he--that you saw him follow?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the right.
Mr. Belin.: By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the-- this is--
Mr. Baker.: This is a hallway right here.
Mr. Belin.: It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there.
Mr. Dulles.: Yes.
Mr. Baker.: And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here that you can get out and to the other part of the building.
Mr. Belin.: I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that point, is that correct?
Mr. Dulles.: Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point?
Mr. Belin.: Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21, points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course, would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the building.
Mr. Dulles.: You would cross if you were going up and down, you would cross right there at the same point?
Mr. Belin.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom, he would be approximately following the same course from the time he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the lunchroom.
Mr. Belin.: Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, you had just marked on Exhibit 497 point "B" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse of something, either through a door or through the window in the door marked 23, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23, if you would, sir.
Mr. Baker.: I ran right straight across here and through this doorway and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here.
Mr. Belin.: All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-I" and, at that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24 in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the lunchroom, right?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; walking away from me.
Mr. Belin.: Walking away from you. And then where did you move from point "B-I"?
Mr. Baker.: I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway.
Mr. Belin.: All right. I am going to put--you have put an "X" there, and I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it, with "B.-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come back to you?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you move from that time until the man came up to you?
Mr. Baker.: As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and meeting him right here in this doorway.
Mr. Belin.: As you called you say you remembered moving forward. and. meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: After you got there, did you move until the man came up to you?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?
Mr. Baker.: At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.
Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.
Mr. Belin.: Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came. I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.
Mr. Belin.: What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?
Mr. Baker.: I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.
Mr. Dulles.: Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.
Mr. Belin.: Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?
Mr. Baker.: Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.
Mr. Belin.: Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. Baker.: He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. Belin.: Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. Baker.: I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
Mr. Dulles.: You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later
Mr. Baker.: I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now.
(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker
Mr. Dulles.: I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Dulles.: Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.
Mr. Baker.: As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.
Mr. Dulles.: You saw him for a moment at that time?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with Mr. Truly, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee?
Mr. Baker.: Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the time you left-to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third floor?
Mr. Baker.: I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left.
Mr. Belin.: All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir. As I left he was still in the position that he was when. ever I was facing him.
Mr. Belin.: You then went where?
Mr. Baker.: I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the stairways.
Mr. Belin.: All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was---I will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, here it is."
Mr. Belin.: Did you take an east or west elevator?
Mr. Baker.: We took the east elevator.
Mr. Belin.: Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight of stairs would have been the east or the west?
Mr. Baker.: The west.
Mr. Belin.: When You got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there?
Mr. Baker.: I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on around.
Mr. Belin.: You went to an east elevator?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: How far did it appear you rode up the elevator?
Mr. Baker.: It was a. short ride. We just, either went one or two floors. I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we went up.
Mr. Belin.: As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or not you passed the elevator on the west side?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I didn't notice.
Mr. Belin.: Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the elevator on the west side might have been moving?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. Belin.: And then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the top floor.
Mr. Belin.: To get up to the roof?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor--
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Belin.: You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: We walked up the flight of stairs to the top.
Mr. Belin.: To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?
Mr. Baker.: We went out on the roof.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do on the roof?
Mr. Baker.: I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. Dulles.: If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that photograph of the building is how high?
Mr. Baker.: Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top of it and tiptoe to see over it.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?
Mr. Baker.: Approximately 5 feet.
Mr. Belin.: Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof side or to all sides of the roof?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind this sign here.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that railroad track."
Mr. Belin.: Did you hear that on your police radio?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.
Mr. Belin.: As you were getting off your motorcycle?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Senator Cooper.: I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?
Mr. Baker.: I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
Mr. Belin.: By "everyone" do you include you, too?
Mr. Baker.: No, Sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.
Mr. Belin.: You are pointing to either the first building, you are pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your motorcycle?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.
Mr. Baker.: Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were people all over this railroad track.
Mr. Belin.: You are saying as you are looking over the south and over the west?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the back side.
Mr. Belin.: All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us what else you did?
Mr. Baker.: As I finished going all around this building here and then I came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place to hold on.
Mr. Belin.: By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up the sign, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.
Mr. Belin.: On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.
Mr. Belin.: Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?
Mr. Baker.: As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.
Mr. Belin.: All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: No indications that anyone would be around there.
Mr. Belin.: Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do?
Senator Cooper.: You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper.: Had they been disturbed in any way?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there.
Mr. Belin.: You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top floor of the building?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: What did you do when you got to the top floor of the building?
Mr. Baker.: We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we caught the same elevator back down.
Mr. Dulles.: The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not?
Mr. Baker.: Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor on up.
Mr. Dulles.: Yes.
Mr. Baker.: And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator that we took up.
Mr. Belin.: When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor?
Mr. Baker.: Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there.
Mr. Belin.: When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top floor down or from the next to the top floor down?
Mr. Baker.: That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes to the next to the top.
Mr. Belin.: Did you take it as far as it went?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down?
Mr. Baker.: We took the elevator down.
Mr. Belin.: Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down?
Mr. Baker.: We took the same one.
Mr. Belin.: When you went to take that elevator going back down did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?
Mr. Baker.: I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking out forward.
Mr. Belin.: It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs going to the roof?
Mr. Baker.: Are you talking about when we got on the elevator?
Mr. Belin.: When you got on the elevator to make the return trip?
Mr. Baker.: There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side instead of just stepping over on the west elevator.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway marked "Ladder to the roof."
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked "Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; it would be.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor, which you said was the east elevator?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on this top floor?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I didn't notice it.
Mr. Belin.: You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir?
Mr. Belin.: When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on that top floor or not?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around over the building.
Mr. Belin.: You would look over the floor itself rather than the other elevator?
Mr. Baker.: That is right.
Mr. Belin.: You then got on the elevator to go on back down?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct.
Mr. Belin.: And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct.
Mr. Belin.: How far did you take the east elevator down?
Mr. Baker.: As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and I was still looking over the building.
Mr. Belin.: As the elevator was moving?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; downward.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Mr. Baker.: The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. Dulles.: City of Dallas Police?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down.
Mr. Belin.: Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor.
Mr. Belin.: Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?
Mr. Baker.: It was a little over 5 minutes.
Mr. Belin.: When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?
Mr. Baker.: We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.
Mr. Belin.: All right. You got off the elevator then?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?
Mr. Baker.: I left Mr. Truly there.
Mr. Belin.: Then what did you do?
Mr. Baker.: I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building been sealed off or not?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door.
Mr. Belin.: The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from coming in and out or what?
Mr. Baker.: I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice whether the west elevator was there?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Belin.: Was there anything else that you observed in or about the Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told us about that you can think of right now?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I can't think of anything else.
Mr. Belin.: From the time you went into the building how long did it take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the time you left, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. Baker.: I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes.
Mr. Belin.: And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly on the first floor?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?
Mr. Baker.: This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.
Mr. Belin.: So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes?
Mr. Baker.: I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't find it and then we came on down.
Mr. Belin.: Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have?
Mr. Dulles.: I have no more questions. Have you any questions?
Mr. Belin.: Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that correct?
Mr. Baker.: That is correct, sir.
.Mr. Belin.: Was this later on that same day?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, it was.
Mr. Belin.: Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository Building on that day?
Mr. Baker.: He was the same man.
Mr. Belin.: Is there anything else about his clothes that you can remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I can't.
Mr. Dulles.: Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. Baker.: Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.
Mr. Belin.: He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?
Mr. Baker.: He looked like he did not have the same on.
Senator Cooper.: Did you say when you first saw this man walking away from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that you said for him to come toward you.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper.: Did he turn around?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, air; he did.
Mr. Dulles.: The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that time, Officer Baker?
Senator Cooper.: He did have a pistol in his hand?
Mr. Baker.: I had the pistol.
Mr. Dulles.: Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand.
Senator Cooper.: I see. Did he move toward you?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; he did.
Senator Cooper.: Was there anything about his appearance that was unusual?
Mr. Baker.: No, Sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said, "Do you know this man? Does he work here?"
And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the expression or nothing on him.
Mr. Dulles.: You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of breath?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Senator Cooper.: He did not show any evidence of any emotion?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Senator Cooper.: Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. Baker.: On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. Dulles.: Were they white men?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the exhibit is south.
It is a little bit upside down from the usual top being north.
You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is shown there.
Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was?
Mr. Baker.: Is that the steps on the outside and this is the----
Mr. Belin.: These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words "Main Entrance."
Mr. Baker.: Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here in front of the building.
Mr. Belin.: Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here swinging?
Mr. Baker.: All of this is the lobby.
Mr. Belin.: Yes, that is all the lobby.
Mr. Baker.: OK. This is the first door that you open to get in.
Mr. Belin.: Yes.
Mr. Baker.: And this is the lobby.
Mr. Belin.: Yes.
Mr. Baker.: And then you have another set of glass doors.
Mr. Belin.: There is another door right here, yes.
Mr. Baker.: And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little old counter-type door that swings--
Mr. Belin.: This would be the swinging door which would be to the west of the room marked " Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Where would you have been when you were yelling would someone tell you about the stain or the elevator?
Mr. Baker.: At this point approximately where the "T" is here.
Mr. Belin.: You would be where the "T" is?
Mr. Baker.: I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far from this door here.
Mr. Belin.: That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362 approximately where the word "T" is.
Mr. Baker.: This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me like, would--I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that.
Mr. Belin.: Yes.
Mr. Baker.: And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?"
Mr. Belin.: I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator?
Mr. Baker.: I came through the first set of doors, the second set and this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that, from the southwest corner here through this swinging door.
Mr. Belin.: That is by Mr. Truly's office?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here.
Mr. Belin.: By the west elevator.
Mr. Baker.: West elevator, that is right.
Mr. Belin.: Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there, would you estimate?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.
Mr. Belin.: You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first pushed the button for the elevator?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles.: Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have any questions?
Mr. Carr.: There is just one. There were many people around there at that time, and the rest of the day
Mr. Dulles.: You are talking now about the Depository Building?
Mr. Carr.: Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some theory they had about what might have happened?
Mr. Baker.: Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas Depository Building, and I had--I have worked traffic outside several times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees.
Mr. Carr.: I am referring to the people who were out there at the time of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to the investigation here?
Mr. Baker.: The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers who were around him.
Mr. Dulles.: Around whom?
Mr. Baker.: Around the President's car at that time.
Mr. Dulles.: What was the nature of those conversations?
Mr. Baker.: Well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory, you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know, in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say, and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came from.
The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from behind.
Mr. Belin.: Say this again, Officer Baker. When you say some were on the left-hand side?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin---
Mr. Belin.: Is he a motorcycle policeman?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; he is.
Mr. Belin.: On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler?
Mr. Baker.: He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler.
Mr. Belin.: Where was he riding at this time?
Mr. Baker.: He was on the left front.
Mr. Belin.: Of what?
Mr. Baker.: There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were four, two on each right side behind.
Mr. Belin.: When you say in front and behind of what vehicle?
Mr. Baker.: We are referring to the President's car.
Mr. Belin.: All right. He was on the front and to the left of the President's car.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. Belin.: What did he say to you about blood or something?
Mr. Baker.: Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from, and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it Out where it came from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield.
Mr. Belin.: Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did he say?
Mr. Baker.: It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the right-hand side of his helmet.
Mr. Belin.: Of his helmet?
Mr. Baker.: On his uniform also.
Mr. Belin.: On his uniform.
Mr. Baker.: That is right.
Mr. Belin.: And he was riding to the left of the President and you say ahead of the President?
Mr. Baker.: On the left-hand side.
Mr. Dulles.: But a little ahead of him?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car.
Mr. Dulles.: Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your question?
Mr. Carr.: I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the lay-men around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance to talk to any of them?
Mr. Baker.: At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those. At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say, 30 minutes or something like that.
Mr. Belin.: Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your questions?
Mr. Carr.: Yes, sir; thank you very much.
Mr. Dulles.: Any further questions?
Mr. Carr.: No; thank you, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and behind.
Mr. Belin.: When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin?
Mr. Baker.: That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together.
Mr. Belin.: What other officers did you talk to and what did they say that you remember?
Mr. Baker.: I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.
Mr. Belin.: Where was he?
Mr. Baker.: He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.
Mr. Belin.: The President's car?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely.
Mr. Dulles.: You saw it stop, did you?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; I didn't see it stop.
Mr. Dulles.: You just heard from others that it had stopped?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was?
Mr. Baker.: Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly where it came from.
Mr. Belin.: How did he know it came from behind then?
Mr. Baker.: Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the President, he said he would see him fall.
Mr. Belin.: Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by that?
Mr. Baker.: Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I assumed he went to the left of him.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought what happened?
Mr. Baker.: I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly, you know, just what their story was.
Mr. Belin.: Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots-came from the front?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the only one.
Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of him. You know--
Mr. Belin.: Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way indicated to you that the shots came from the front?Mr. Baker.
No, sir. Senator Cooper.: I would like to ask a couple of questions.
I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There were two people sitting down on the first floor.
Mr. Baker.: As I entered that depository building, I was--people were running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way.
Mr. Dulles.: From inside the building?
Mr. Baker.: No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal.
Senator Cooper.: As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors.
Senator Cooper.: Did you see anyone?
Mr. Belin.: When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs.
Senator Cooper.: I am aware of that.
Mr. Baker.: I was still looking.
Senator Cooper.: You went up on the second floor by stairs?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper.: Then you got on the elevator.
Mr. Belin.: No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.
Senator Cooper.: Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?
Mr. Baker.: Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody.
Senator Cooper.: Did you see anyone?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir.
Senator Cooper.: When you looked?
Mr. Baker.: Not from the second floor on up.
Senator Cooper.: As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really didn't see nothing in the windows.
Senator Cooper.: I may be repeating because I missed the first part of his testimony.
Mr. Dulles.: Go ahead.
Senator Cooper.: But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw some pigeons fly up.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper.: What was the sequence of time between the time you saw the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?
Mr. Baker.: As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I sighted up, and while I was looking-up, those other two shots came off, and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.
Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing north in the street.
Senator Cooper.: Which way were the pigeons going?
Mr. Baker.: They were just coming up, you know.
Senator Cooper.: I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I try to be.
Senator Cooper.: Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper.: Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush.
Senator Cooper.: Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?
Mr. Baker.: No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.
Senator Cooper.: Could you see the railroad yards?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple under-pass to my left, all out behind this building.
Senator Cooper.: Did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than---
Mr. Baker.: Nothing except---
Senator Cooper.: Crowd?
Mr. Baker.: There were people all over this track, over this triple underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, you know, going up.
Senator Cooper.: Were there any officers that you saw near the School Book Depository when you went in?
Mr. Baker.: There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and Officer J. W. Williams was---
Mr. Dulles.: By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by myself. I didn't know where anybody went.
Senator Cooper.: Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out there at Parkland.
Mr. Dulles.: You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several other officers?
Mr. Baker.: Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not?
Mr. Baker.: Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.
Mr. Belin.: All right.
You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting?
Mr. Baker.: I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.
Mr. Belin.: Is it a rifle?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Automatic or bolt action?
Mr. Baker.: Bolt action.
Mr. Belin.: How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?
Mr. Baker.: This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.
Mr. Belin.: Have you had much experience to go hunting?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir. Every year.
Mr. Belin.: Every year you go deer hunting?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?
Mr. Baker.: That is right, sir.
Mr. Belin.: From other rifles?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. Belin.: In what way did it influence them?
Mr. Baker.: To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.
Senator Cooper.: How long have you been firing a rifle?
Mr. Baker.: Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.
Senator Cooper.: Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.
Senator Cooper.: Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?
Mr. Baker.: I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.
Senator Cooper.: Do you know what kind of rifle it is?
Mr. Baker.: Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.
Senator Cooper.: What were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle?
Mr. Baker.: Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be I have heard that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me there was just a difference in them.
Mr. Belin.: Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?
Mr. Baker.: I would say they was from the same rifle.
Mr. Belin.: Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?
Mr. Baker.: It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time.
Mr. Belin.: Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Belin.: Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper.: If you made any judgment, what was the length of time from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?
Mr. Baker.: I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be-- I don't believe it would be over 3 seconds apart.
Mr. Dulles.: Over what?
Mr. Baker.: Three seconds apart.
Mr. Belin.: From each shot?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 seconds from the second to the third?
Mr. Baker.: Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.: You are saying not over 3 seconds?
Mr. Baker.: Not over 3 seconds.
Mr. Dulles.: Any further questions?
Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful.

(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Source:
Warren Commission Hearings, Vol. III, p. 242.

This page has been built by RTF2HTML, 1996